Demons and the believer

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Well, what you were told, (not taught) was wrong. I notice that you hoisted up the KJV? Usually you post ESV? But anyway, this is a funeral song. Right? A lament for a dead king. So, Ezekiel is told by God to write a song about a DEAD NO LONGER LIVING KING. Let's keep that in mind, shall we? Ezekiel 28:8 concerning the prophecy is that his death will be at sea. He dies and is laid in a watery grave. The king is told that he is wise, and that his wisdom acquired him riches Ezekiel 28:4. then because of this wealth through business he becomes proud and calls himself a god. Like all other kings before him, and after him with call themselves deity. From the Egyptian Pharaoh to the Roman Caesar. Ezekiel 28:7 then has the prophet informing the king that enemies from the surrounding nations come to kill this king, and take everything he worked for. Hence his death in the middle of the seas, which could be poetic language for multitudes of the nations which come to attack him. But for all you literalists we will deep six the old boy to Davy Jones' Locker. Ezekiel 28:9 has this king begging for his life before he dies. Ezekiel 28:10 says that this king was circumcised? You can't be disparaged with the comment of uncircumcised if you are already uncircumcised. Therefore again he is told about who will kill him, foreigners. Now, after Ezekiel 28:10 we start his funeral dirge.

We have to keep in mind that the scripture is using poetic language to describe that the king starts out good but ends up bad. His bad was lawlessness due to his greed in commerce, he was made wealthy and that wealth is what caused his problems. Also in Ezekiel 28:18 we aren't told of one sanctuary, but this king defiled many sanctuaries. Which were his? Satan had sanctuaries? In Eden? Near the fig tree, or the domestic olive tree?
Did Eve have a Bible study with a serpent which was more subtle than any of the beasts of the field? Or did she have a Bible study with a many winged cherub, encrusted with jewelry and gold? Was he made to slither away to eat the dust, or was he killed immediately? Is his name Lucifer in Latin? Which is just bright morning star which then Jesus is also called Lucifer in the Spanish Bibles and the Latin Vulgate.

Interesting is the verse in Ezekiel 28:18 Good News Translation (GNT)

You did such evil in buying and selling that your places of worship were corrupted. So I set fire to the city and burned it to the ground. All who look at you now see you reduced to ashes.

Sound like anything familiar in the New Testament? But still we are talking about a king which is attributed as having favor once with God's blessings. But made a choice through lawlessness and greed to commit evil, and therefore God kills him. What really confuses people is the Hebrew is unclear in Ezekiel 28:14.

LXX makes it clear that from the day that thou wast created thou wast WITH the cherub: I set thee on the holy mount of God; thou wast in the midst of the stones of fire. Other English versions also follow this because the Hebrew was so unclear.

New Century Version
I appointed a living creature to guard you. I put you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among the gems that shined like fire. Bible in Basic English
I gave you your place with the winged one; I put you on the mountain of God; you went up and down among the stones of fire.

George Lamsa Translation of the Peshitta
You were with the anointed cherub that shelters; and I have set you on the holy mountain of God; and you were safe in the midst of the stones of fire.

In the targum for Ezekiel that the stones of fire are the people of God. Again poetic language.

Good News Translation
I put a terrifying angel there to guard you. You lived on my holy mountain and walked among sparkling gems.

New Century Version
I appointed a living creature to guard you. I put you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among the gems that shined like fire.

New Revised Standard
With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire.

Cherry picking the chapter to suit some made up story which is found no where in the Bible. Is more agenda then seeking Biblical truth.

Almost sounds like the prince (and people?) of Tyre had a close connection with Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, and the Temple. Might explain David and Solomon's close connection with Hiram? Who were the people of Tyre?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Almost sounds like the prince (and people?) of Tyre had a close connection with Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, and the Temple. Might explain David and Solomon's close connection with Hiram? Who were the people of Tyre?

King Hiram was at least half Israelite -

1 Kings 7:13-14 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Asher had it's border near Zidon and Tyre:

Joshua 19:28-31 And Hebron, and Rehob, and Hammon, and Kanah, even unto great Zidon; (29) And then the coast turneth to Ramah, and to the strong city Tyre; and the coast turneth to Hosah; and the outgoings thereof are at the sea from the coast to Achzib: (30) Ummah also, and Aphek, and Rehob: twenty and two cities with their villages. (31) This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Asher according to their families, these cities with their villages.

The tribe of Zebulon was nearby, and was a maritime tribe to boot:

Genesis 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

Looks highly possible that the Tyrians had plenty of connections to Israel. One of their kings was at least half-Israelite and helped build the Temple. So it is possible that the prince of Tyre spoken about by Ezekiel may have had a connection to the Temple worship, and may even have been (at least partial) Israelite. This might explain some of the statements Ezekiel makes about him as if he were in Zion, at the Temple, etc.

[Amanah]

Mankind attempts to Rule/self govern

Genesis 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Jesus overcomes the flesh and inaugurates the Kingdom of God on earth (Spiritual) as it is in heaven:

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

All rebellion to God's authority is overthrown and the Kingdom of God is established (Spiritual and physical)

Rev 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Amanah]

Jesus is the God of this world.

Ephesians 1:18-23 King James Version (KJV)
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

************

saying satan is the god of this world is contrary to the word of God and heretical.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

King Hiram was at least half Israelite -

1 Kings 7:13-14 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

Asher had it's border near Zidon and Tyre:

Joshua 19:28-31 And Hebron, and Rehob, and Hammon, and Kanah, even unto great Zidon; (29) And then the coast turneth to Ramah, and to the strong city Tyre; and the coast turneth to Hosah; and the outgoings thereof are at the sea from the coast to Achzib: (30) Ummah also, and Aphek, and Rehob: twenty and two cities with their villages. (31) This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Asher according to their families, these cities with their villages.

The tribe of Zebulon was nearby, and was a maritime tribe to boot:

Genesis 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.

Looks highly possible that the Tyrians had plenty of connections to Israel. One of their kings was at least half-Israelite and helped build the Temple. So it is possible that the prince of Tyre spoken about by Ezekiel may have had a connection to the Temple worship, and may even have been (at least partial) Israelite. This might explain some of the statements Ezekiel makes about him as if he were in Zion, at the Temple, etc.

I must admit, that is very interesting. But I'd need more evidence before assuming it is truth. However, this does open the door to possibilities.

I was always told he was a pagan king.

[Aquila]

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I know we've looked at this from several perspectives. I'd always understood the term "god of this world" to refer to Satan, the "god of this age" or "world system".

We essentially see two kingdoms. One is a heavenly kingdom, the other is a kingdom of this world.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I know we've looked at this from several perspectives. I'd always understood the term "god of this world" to refer to Satan, the "god of this age" or "world system".

We essentially see two kingdoms. One is a heavenly kingdom, the other is a kingdom of this world.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Well, what you were told, (not taught) was wrong. I notice that you hoisted up the KJV? Usually you post ESV? But anyway, this is a funeral song. Right? A lament for a dead king. So, Ezekiel is told by God to write a song about a DEAD NO LONGER LIVING KING. Let's keep that in mind, shall we? Ezekiel 28:8 concerning the prophecy is that his death will be at sea. He dies and is laid in a watery grave. The king is told that he is wise, and that his wisdom acquired him riches Ezekiel 28:4. then because of this wealth through business he becomes proud and calls himself a god. Like all other kings before him, and after him with call themselves deity. From the Egyptian Pharaoh to the Roman Caesar. Ezekiel 28:7 then has the prophet informing the king that enemies from the surrounding nations come to kill this king, and take everything he worked for. Hence his death in the middle of the seas, which could be poetic language for multitudes of the nations which come to attack him. But for all you literalists we will deep six the old boy to Davy Jones' Locker. Ezekiel 28:9 has this king begging for his life before he dies. Ezekiel 28:10 says that this king was circumcised? You can't be disparaged with the comment of uncircumcised if you are already uncircumcised. Therefore again he is told about who will kill him, foreigners. Now, after Ezekiel 28:10 we start his funeral dirge.

We have to keep in mind that the scripture is using poetic language to describe that the king starts out good but ends up bad. His bad was lawlessness due to his greed in commerce, he was made wealthy and that wealth is what caused his problems. Also in Ezekiel 28:18 we aren't told of one sanctuary, but this king defiled many sanctuaries. Which were his? Satan had sanctuaries? In Eden? Near the fig tree, or the domestic olive tree?
Did Eve have a Bible study with a serpent which was more subtle than any of the beasts of the field? Or did she have a Bible study with a many winged cherub, encrusted with jewelry and gold? Was he made to slither away to eat the dust, or was he killed immediately? Is his name Lucifer in Latin? Which is just bright morning star which then Jesus is also called Lucifer in the Spanish Bibles and the Latin Vulgate.

Interesting is the verse in Ezekiel 28:18 Good News Translation (GNT)

You did such evil in buying and selling that your places of worship were corrupted. So I set fire to the city and burned it to the ground. All who look at you now see you reduced to ashes.

Sound like anything familiar in the New Testament? But still we are talking about a king which is attributed as having favor once with God's blessings. But made a choice through lawlessness and greed to commit evil, and therefore God kills him. What really confuses people is the Hebrew is unclear in Ezekiel 28:14.

LXX makes it clear that from the day that thou wast created thou wast WITH the cherub: I set thee on the holy mount of God; thou wast in the midst of the stones of fire. Other English versions also follow this because the Hebrew was so unclear.

New Century Version
I appointed a living creature to guard you. I put you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among the gems that shined like fire. Bible in Basic English
I gave you your place with the winged one; I put you on the mountain of God; you went up and down among the stones of fire.

George Lamsa Translation of the Peshitta
You were with the anointed cherub that shelters; and I have set you on the holy mountain of God; and you were safe in the midst of the stones of fire.

In the targum for Ezekiel that the stones of fire are the people of God. Again poetic language.

Good News Translation
I put a terrifying angel there to guard you. You lived on my holy mountain and walked among sparkling gems.

New Century Version
I appointed a living creature to guard you. I put you on the holy mountain of God. You walked among the gems that shined like fire.

New Revised Standard
With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire.

Cherry picking the chapter to suit some made up story which is found no where in the Bible. Is more agenda then seeking Biblical truth.

All good stuff. Thank you for contributing. I'm not much for the Good News translations. They are more dynamic than formal in their equivalency.

The ESV renders the text:

Ezekiel 28:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

The online Tanakh translated from the Hebrew by Jewish Hebrew scholars renders the text:

Yichezkel 28:14
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...iel-chapter-28

I've noticed that the more one drifts from the formal equivalency of Scripture to dynamic (more liberal translations), the more likely they are to embrace the notion of this king being "with" the anointed cherub instead of actually being the anointed cherub.

Add with it the references of being in God's presence, and being in Eden, and it all agrees. Whatever wicked spirit was in this earthly king was quite ancient.

So, I believe there is room to disagree with you on this front.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

While God sends strong delusion to the unrepentant, demonic forces also engage in deception both independently, and perhaps even by His command at times. In fact, there is a school of thought that would propose that God sends strong delusion through the god of this world, by allowing Satan to blind the unrepentant masses. Personal Satan, or not, God is still in full control and has all authority. A personal Satan, or any of the various demonic entities, only act within the boundaries God has set for them. Rebellious, wicked, unclean, or what... they technically still serve to execute Gods' desires and operate within boundaries and spiritual laws set by Jehovah God.

Remember, things are not always "either/or", they are often, "yes/and".

Also, God is the King of all ages. Not just this age. You'll notice that translators typically translate the text "god" instead of "God".

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All good stuff. Thank you for contributing. I'm not much for the Good News translations. They are more dynamic than formal in their equivalency.

The ESV renders the text:

Ezekiel 28:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

The online Tanakh translated from the Hebrew by Jewish Hebrew scholars renders the text:

Yichezkel 28:14
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...iel-chapter-28

I've noticed that the more one drifts from the formal equivalency of Scripture to dynamic (more liberal translations), the more likely they are to embrace the notion of this king being "with" the anointed cherub instead of actually being the anointed cherub.

Liberal translation? One was the Peshitta Syrian translation in English, and the other was the LXX. The LXX was used by Jesus Christ and His followers in the first century A.D.. The Hebrew you allude to being conservative is 600 A.D. 1,000 years after the LXX.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Add with it the references of being in God's presence, and being in Eden, and it all agrees.

Whatever wicked spirit was in this earthly king was quite ancient.

So, I believe there is room to disagree with you on this front.

Ezekiel 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

Satan was circumcised? Cherubs are circumcised? If yes, explain why?