Revelation 18

[Michael The Disciple]

The saints of God are kings and priests.

Rev 1:5-6

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Each time High Priest is used in Zechariah it is conjoined to a name Joshua and Josedech.

I dont see where Zech calls the candlestick or olive trees King and priest. can you provide the text.

This tends to happen when people build their eschatology from soundbites off the internet/books/conferences. They hear ideas, they like them, they run with them, but don't really look too closely at them.

Happens in a lot of other areas, too. Sign o' the times.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I vote no. It seems to happen about the time Jesus comes. Some will say it was Jerusalem ad 70 I'm sure. If so they have a "gap" problem every bit as big as the "dispensationalists".

The thing is we need to be careful about assuming how long a vision takes to be fulfilled, how long it lasts, and how long between visions, without specific statements in the text.

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Each time High Priest is used in Zechariah it is conjoined to a name Joshua and Josedech.

I dont see where Zech calls the candlestick or olive trees King and priest. can you provide the text.

Yes. Joshua and Josedech are types of the real Jesus.

Zec 3:1.. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD,...

Zec 4:14.. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth...

[Bowas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The thing is we need to be careful about assuming how long a vision takes to be fulfilled, how long it lasts, and how long between visions, without specific statements in the text.

The time it takes for the prophecies to come to past quite often is embedded in the context.




Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev_1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear THE WORDS OF THIS PROPHECY, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and SEALED TILL THE TIME OF THE END.
And then…
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


1Jn 2:18 Little children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME.

All I know is what the Apostles knew, and if they are wrong, then the Bible is wrong, as they declared multiple times they were in the last days/times.

They are correct.


I have seen no viable (BIBLICAL) alternative opinion as to who the two witnesses were, just opinions. Mine is an opinion as well that seems at this time to at least have some scripture to try to reveal who/what are the witnesses/olive trees/candlesticks/prophets may represent.

[Esaias]

Bowas, here's the score:

1. You said calling the two witnesses "prophets" was man's interjection. You were adamant they were not scripturally called prophets. But as MTD pointed out, they are explicitly called prophets. Strike one.

2. You said ch 11 teaches the "voice of God was silent in Jerusalem for 3.5 years", but the scripture states they prophesied in the city for 1,260 days - 3.5 years. Strike two.

3. You said the book is symbolic, and the witnesses are symbolic. But the city is literal? With no rationale as to how to distinguish one from the other? Strike three.

4. You said Rev 18 was the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, but you can't explain what happened after (Armageddon, ch 19, destruction of Beasts, etc)? Strike four.

5. You don't want to deal with the dating issue. Strike five.

6. You said the time texts put it all in the first century, but didn't you say the "second coming" was still in the future? Strike six.

You've been up to bat twice, and struck out both times. Maybe you should rethink your position? Just saying.

[Esaias]

As for the identity of the Two Witnesses, the Bible tells us quite a bit.

They aren't just witnesses, but "My" witnesses, that is, God's. Whom does God say are His witnesses?

Isaiah 43:10, 43:12, and 44:8 specify that the sons of Jacob are God's witnesses in this world as to His Sovereignty and Lordship.

The sons of Jacob consisted of two Houses: The House of Judah, consisting of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin and some of Levi, and the House of Israel, consisting of the other ten tribes led by Ephraim. And thus the House of Israel was also called Ephraim, and Joseph, after the predominant tribe, just as the House of Judah was called Judah after its predominant tribe.

The Two Houses were to be joined together as one under Messiah. The Two Witnesses are new covenant witnesses (as per the context of Revelation and the NT, because apart from Christ one is not a witness for God).

The reuniting of both Houses under Messiah to proclaim His truth to the nations is a major theme in Bible prophecy, both old and new testaments.

Jeremiah 11:16 calls Judah God's planted "green olive tree". Since God also planted the House of Israel, they too would be one of God's "olive trees". Thus God's two olive trees connected with being a witness to Him.

In Zechariah, the seer has a vision of a candlestick, and two olive trees on either side of it. The candlestick is essentially a menorah, seven lamped, and represents the light of God's truth. The two olive trees are witnesses of God's truth, and the oil that supplies the candlestick so it may be lit and give light originates from the olive trees. Thus the anointing OIL that is in the olive trees is the anointing upon the two witnesses by means of which the light of God's Word and Truth shines forth in this world.

The two anointed ones are the Houses of Israel and Judah, as it written in Psalm 105, where the people of God are identified as Jehovah's anointed. Anointing is for priesthood, and kingship. As Israel was called to be a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6), and as the two Houses were together Jehovah's Dominion (kingship) and Sanctuary (priesthood) in this earth - Psalm 114:1-2.

The House of Israel was divorced by God for their idolatries and declared to not be His people (Hosea 1:9). This made them "gentiles". But they were prophesied to one day be called "sons of the living God" (Hosea 1:10) and would be joined together with Judah under Messiah (Hosea 1:11) as one people. Paul said this was being fulfilled in his day (Romans 9:25-26).

So the Two Witnesses are an apocalyptic representation of New Covenant Israel speaking forth the Word of God and pronouncing the Divine Judgments of God upon the heathen. They are two Houses, olive trees, planted by God, anointed as kings and priests by identification with Christ their Priest-King, representing God to an unbelieving world.

[Esaias]

So... that's that, I guess?

lol

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So... that's that, I guess?

lol

Is the church included? Dont leave us out we have been grafted in. Are we a part of the olive tree.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Is the church included? Dont leave us out we have been grafted in. Are we a part of the olive tree.

New covenant Israel is the church, and vice versa. Anyone else (besides Israelites) who exercises faith can also enter the new covenant (Isaiah 56:8).