Revelation 18

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

New covenant Israel is the church, and vice versa. Anyone else (besides Israelites) who exercises faith can also enter the new covenant (Isaiah 56:8).

what do you mean "besides Israelites"?
so is the church the two witnesses?
or are the two witnesses the church and a future believing group of Jews?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Is the church included? Dont leave us out we have been grafted in. Are we a part of the olive tree.

Wanted to respond a bit more in depth. The church is God's ecclesia, or qahal, congregation. That congregation is Israel, and is composed of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israelites, all 12 tribes). Ten of those tribes were divorced and cut off in the 8th century BC or thereabouts, and scattered from Palestine by the Assyrians. They were Biblically now "gentiles". These gentiles increased in number and spread abroad. Eventually, they were rejoined with the believing remnant of Judah by faith in Messiah. Or, at least many of them were. These are the "gentiles" and "Greeks" of the New Testament, with but few exceptions (usually stated in the text).

As Isaiah and other OT scriptures indicate, Israel's mission was and is to bring the knowledge of God to ALL nations, tribes, families, tongues, etc. Under both the Old (Mosaic) Covenant and the New (Messianic) Covenant, people of all nations, tribes, families, languages etc were and are being joined to Israel under the headship of Messiah.

Unfortunately, when most people hear or read about Israel, Israelites, etc they automatically think "Jews", and automatically think of the people TODAY known as Jews. But those are all very different terms with very different meanings. Likewise, when they read or hear "gentiles" they assume it means "anyone not descended from Jacob", and apply it to all modern non-Jews. These errors lead to other errors, compounding as one goes.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

what do you mean "besides Israelites"?
so is the church the two witnesses?
or are the two witnesses the church and a future believing group of Jews?

I posted a response before I read this, and I think it addresses the gist of your question:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wanted to respond a bit more in depth. The church is God's ecclesia, or qahal, congregation. That congregation is Israel, and is composed of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israelites, all 12 tribes). Ten of those tribes were divorced and cut off in the 8th century BC or thereabouts, and scattered from Palestine by the Assyrians. They were Biblically now "gentiles". These gentiles increased in number and spread abroad. Eventually, they were rejoined with the believing remnant of Judah by faith in Messiah. Or, at least many of them were. These are the "gentiles" and "Greeks" of the New Testament, with but few exceptions (usually stated in the text).

As Isaiah and other OT scriptures indicate, Israel's mission was and is to bring the knowledge of God to ALL nations, tribes, families, tongues, etc. Under both the Old (Mosaic) Covenant and the New (Messianic) Covenant, people of all nations, tribes, families, languages etc were and are being joined to Israel under the headship of Messiah.

Unfortunately, when most people hear or read about Israel, Israelites, etc they automatically think "Jews", and automatically think of the people TODAY known as Jews. But those are all very different terms with very different meanings. Likewise, when they read or hear "gentiles" they assume it means "anyone not descended from Jacob", and apply it to all modern non-Jews. These errors lead to other errors, compounding as one goes.

So, to summarize, the two witnesses are the church, and the church is the reunited Houses of Israel and Judah in Christ (along with anyone else who obeys the Gospel).

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I posted a response before I read this, and I think it addresses the gist of your question:



So, to summarize, the two witnesses are the church, and the church is the reunited Houses of Israel and Judah in Christ (along with anyone else who obeys the Gospel).

does the tree and a half days represent three and a half years of tribulation before the resurection? does this corelate with the events spoken of in Rev 18:4 is this the same "come up hither" or "come out of her my people" and then the wrath?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

does the tree and a half days

Are you Irish? lol, sorry, couldn't help it.

represent three and a half years of tribulation before the resurection?

I'm not sure at this point. I haven't gone through the chronology and time sequences in Revelation thoroughly enough to render what I consider a qualified opinion on that, yet. But I'm working on it.

does this corelate with the events spoken of in Rev 18:4 is this the same "come up hither" or "come out of her my people" and then the wrath?

I do not think the "come out of her" is a reference to a rapture. I think it is a general command for God's people to separate from Babylon because her doom is certain, and anyone participating in her sins will receive of that doom. The "wrath of God" was already underway back at least in chapter 16, so I see no indication of any "pre-wrath" scenarios involving chapter 18.

There are obvious connections between 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and the 1260 days/time, times, half a time of the Woman's flight to the wilderness (ch 12), and the 42 months (which is 1260 days or 3.5 years) of the seven headed beast's continuance (ch 13). The 3.5 days of the Witnesses being dead has a symbolic (numerical) connection as well, but I don't see how that could be representing the same actual time period as the 1260 days. That would involve some numerical gymnastics I'm not comfortable with.

[Esaias]

The Two Witnesses are raised "after three days and a half". The language used is straight out of Ezekiel 37:10 (spirit or breath of life entered into them, and they stood upon their feet). Ezekiel seems to be referencing a national restoration or revival of God's people using the symbolism of resurrection, and the correlation between that vision and the one in Revelation 11 seems to confirm that both are speaking about a restoration/revival of God's people (though not necessarily referring to the same exact event).

The time frame echoes that of Hosea 6:2, which likewise seems to be speaking of a national revival and restoration, but which also seems to point towards Christ's resurrection. I believe this is the "scripture" that Jesus and the apostles meant when speaking of Christ rising from the dead on the third day "according to the scripture". So here Israel's raising is accomplished first by Christ's raising, so that we are raised up "together with Him" in a spiritual sense when we are placed in Him via conversion. This looks forward to the actual day of resurrection.

But the time frame in Rev 11 is not exact with either Hosea's, or Christ's. 3.5 days is a bit longer than either, thus indicating some difference. This tends to make me suspect it is referring to a literal time frame of some kind rather than just being a symbolic "memory aid' to get the reader to think back to Hosea.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Are you Irish? lol, sorry, couldn't help it.



I'm not sure at this point. I haven't gone through the chronology and time sequences in Revelation thoroughly enough to render what I consider a qualified opinion on that, yet. But I'm working on it.



I do not think the "come out of her" is a reference to a rapture. I think it is a general command for God's people to separate from Babylon because her doom is certain, and anyone participating in her sins will receive of that doom. The "wrath of God" was already underway back at least in chapter 16, so I see no indication of any "pre-wrath" scenarios involving chapter 18.

There are obvious connections between 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and the 1260 days/time, times, half a time of the Woman's flight to the wilderness (ch 12), and the 42 months (which is 1260 days or 3.5 years) of the seven headed beast's continuance (ch 13). The 3.5 days of the Witnesses being dead has a symbolic (numerical) connection as well, but I don't see how that could be representing the same actual time period as the 1260 days. That would involve some numerical gymnastics I'm not comfortable with.

German.

in Rev 11 vs11 revival of the Two. vs 12 ascended up to heaven vs 13 earthquake vs 15 7th trumpet vs18 "and thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,.."

this setting seems to be a picture of the end. also IMO is seems to be the same setting as Rev ch 18 and 19. IMO

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

German.

in Rev 11 vs11 revival of the Two. vs 12 ascended up to heaven vs 13 earthquake vs 15 7th trumpet vs18 "and thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,.."

this setting seems to be a picture of the end. also IMO is seems to be the same setting as Rev ch 18 and 19. IMO

In the vision the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and raised up to heaven. These things represent something. The Witnesses represent God's witnessing people, their death by the beast represents a condition or event, their resurrection and ascension likewise. Their resurrection is definitely couched in language from Ezekiel's vision, thus helping establish a similarity of meaning. Thus, their resurrection and subsequent ascension should not be taken to mean God's people (at that time) literally resurrect and ascend to heaven. If we take it that way, then we have broken the flow of the symbolism being employed. And we know it is symbolic because there isn't going to be a literal Gojira monster with seven heads climb out of a bottomless pit and kill them. So, if they are a symbol that represents something, then the events which happen in the vision likewise represent something. And, considering the parallels to Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc, it would seem the events being represented are some kind of decline or oppression or silencing, followed by a sudden and unexpected renewal, and an exaltation. Their renewal seems to presage the destruction of Babylon, although that destruction doesn't happen immediately (rather an earthquake and a 10% destruction happens upon those events, see Rev 11:13).

I believe the time of their witnessing is 1260 years (represented by the 1260 prophetic days) up to their apparent "death" or occlusion. Thus, I do not picture these events as happening within a short space of time "at the end". Rather, they take place across a much larger stretch of time.

[Esaias]

This has inspired me to do a study on Mystery Babylon. Lord willing, I'll be presenting it this next Sabbath, and I'll post the notes here in this thread.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Esaias

This has inspired me to do a study on Mystery Babylon. Lord willing, I'll be presenting it this next Sabbath, and I'll post the notes here in this thread.