All trinatarians are lost!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Costeon

On the contrary, I am very interested in understanding exactly what someone means when they confidently assign large groups of people to hell.



Trinitarians would say they believe what Jesus said here. They have a different view from Oneness, a misunderstanding. You confidently say a misunderstanding damns people, and so the point is that you do think a person is saved by their ability to understand a doctrine precisely, regardless if they have experienced the right things.



When you assign people to hell, I don't think you can take a "chances are" approach and waver at all. In short, according to your view, it seems, that someone could experience all the right things but still be lost if they did not think the right things.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So much for you shall know the truth, and the TRUTH shall make you free.

Is the truth a set of religious dogmas?

Or is it in fact Jesus Christ himself?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I was hoping you could provide the scriptures that say what you are saying?

Sometimes I wonder what goes through people's minds as they read the scriptures. Specifically when y'all imply that 100% doctrinal accuracy, clarity, and articulation is expected of those who are truly saved. Do y'all even realize the level Christ met people on, or the belief He required?

How accurate of an understanding did the lame man have who Jesus forgave his sins and told to carry his bed? What about the woman with constant bleeding for 12 years? Zaccheaus? Nicodemus? The thief on the cross? Peter? Philip? Thomas? The gospels are filled with examples of people who believed in Christ, but didn't even have an accurate understanding of even the basics, such as the deity of the Messiah, the ministry of the Messiah, and certainly not any kind of idea about the substitionary atonement and salvation through the death and resurrection of the Messiah.

And we know it didn't stop there, for Acts is filled with further basic instructions for new converts, as are the Epistles,with constant instruction, constant warnings against false teachers, heresy, deception, defenses of the true gospel, etc.

The Bible is plain, believing the gospel and placing ones faith in Jesus Christ is what matters. If someone genuinely repents and believes, God is able to work the rest out in His time, and for the believer, that need not be limited to this temporal life.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Costeon

On the contrary, I am very interested in understanding exactly what someone means when they confidently assign large groups of people to hell.



Trinitarians would say they believe what Jesus said here. They have a different view from Oneness, a misunderstanding. You confidently say a misunderstanding damns people, and so the point is that you do think a person is saved by their ability to understand a doctrine precisely, regardless if they have experienced the right things.



When you assign people to hell, I don't think you can take a "chances are" approach and waver at all. In short, according to your view, it seems, that someone could experience all the right things but still be lost if they did not think the right things.

It’s a big misunderstanding. The trinity believes there are 3 separate distinct person that in unity are 1 god... that’s false doctrine

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Is the truth a set of religious dogmas?

Or is it in fact Jesus Christ himself?

Hence the reason why modern Christianity is just a bunch of opinions.

Narrow is the way, and στενός is the opening to eternal life. The Greek word στενός with the word gate is pretty important. Because it means the opening is almost a closed one. The path to that gate is hard to navigate, and when you finally get to the door you find it is almost closed shut. Jesus also tells you that there will be a small few who find it. Hey, I get it, I totally understand how "Christians" want to believe that all these nice people are going to be on the Peace Train. But, the Bible you and I have in our little hands paints a different story. Because there is another road, one that is an actually super highway. That broadway, is leading to a gigantic wide open door, which has trillions flowing through it. All the way to their damnation.

You and I will be debating this now, but sooner or later, the debate is over.

We will be deader than fried chicken, and at our judgement there will be no debate, or sweet sugary Bible study. Complete with a white robed barefoot Jesus. No, we will be judged on what we have done in the body. That's why I want to make sure I make my calling an election sure. I hope all those who call themselves Trinitarians get their dogma repaired. But, while they do that, I got my own self to be concerned with. People can talk smack about whatever but while we debate the clock is ticking away. You and I get older, and our departure just gets closer. Some, closer than others. I need to make sure for myself that I have it right for me. If others near me can get the truth, well, praise Jesus, and great that they made sure to find the right door.
As far as Trinitarians and their messed up theology and soteriology is concerned I can't help that. They need to be wanting through faith to be right with God. Then obviously they will succeed. Because the Spirit of Truth shall guide us into all truth?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

It’s a big misunderstanding. The trinity believes there are 3 separate distinct person that in unity are 1 god... that’s false doctrine

Trinity is three separate gods who make up the one super god force,

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom,

David Moses Berg's Children of God spoke in tongues like Chinamen at a fire drill.

Just for the historical record they also baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

At 25:00 into the video.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Sometimes I wonder what goes through people's minds as they read the scriptures. Specifically when y'all imply that 100% doctrinal accuracy, clarity, and articulation is expected of those who are truly saved. Do y'all even realize the level Christ met people on, or the belief He required?

I'm always wondering why people - like you, for instance - can't discuss things without endless hyperbole, extreme hypotheticals, and limitless numbers of straw man arguments, instead of just answering a simple, direct question, like "Where does the Bible say what you are saying?"

The gospels are filled with examples of people who believed in Christ, but didn't even have an accurate understanding of even the basics, such as the deity of the Messiah, the ministry of the Messiah, and certainly not any kind of idea about the substitionary atonement and salvation through the death and resurrection of the Messiah.

I suspect it is futile for me to ask you to demonstrate this? Where does the Bible show saved Christians who didn't understand the deity of Christ, the ministry of Christ, substitutionary atonement, and/or salvation through the death and resurrection of Christ?

The Bible is plain, believing the gospel and placing ones faith in Jesus Christ is what matters. If someone genuinely repents and believes, God is able to work the rest out in His time, and for the believer, that need not be limited to this temporal life.

So the warnings against false teachers, damnable heresies, deceptions, etc really don't amount to anything, as long as a person continues to "believe the gospel and place one's faith in Jesus"? Can you not see how your statements come across as contradictory, and as so vague and broad Satan himself could float an armada of heretics through the locks?

[Esaias]

"Don't major in the minors." "Is that doctrine really salvific?" "That doctrine is not one of the essentials." "Do "I HAVE to believe that in order to be saved?" "Are you saying I will be condemned if I believe that doctrine?"

Such statements and questions betray a serious misunderstanding of the importance of doctrine. They reveal a mindset and a belief system, in which doctrine is put into one of two categories: essential, and non essential. Essential doctrines are things that must be believed in order to be saved, non essential doctrines are things that can be believed... or not believed... with no bearing on one's walk with God or one's final destination. This is a serious misunderstanding because the Bible teaches no such thing as "two categories of doctrine, one essential, and the other non essential." The Bible DOES teach two categories of doctrine, though - one is true and correct doctrine, and the other is FALSE doctrine. And the Bible nowhere suggests that false doctrine is irrelevant to one's salvation. In fact, the Bible teaches exactly the opposite - salvation depends on doctrine!

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(Matthew 4:4)

Here, Jesus affirms that our life depends on every word of God. God has ordained that man shall live by every word of God. This means every word of God, that is to say, the entirety of God's words to man, are vitally important. Just as the just shall live by faith means that those who are justified shall have eternal life by faith, so too man shall live by every word of God means man shall have eternal life by adhering to EVERY word of God.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Matthew 15:7-9)

Here, Jesus declares that worship depends on doctrine, and that false doctrine (the commandments of men) produces vain, empty, meaningless worship. You cannot truly worship God with false doctrines invented by men.

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
(Mark 8:36-38)

Here the Lord plainly connects His doctrine with salvation. If anyone is ashamed of Christ's words (not just some of them, but any of them), then Christ will be ashamed of him (that is, if anyone refuses to acknowledge Christ's teachings, then Christ will refuse to acknowledge him).

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
(John 14:23-24)

Jesus says if anyone loves Him they will keep His words, that is, they will acknowledge and obey His teachings. Further, He declares that His words aren't just His, but Almighty God's words. Remember, man shall live by every word of God.

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
(Matthew 10:40)

Jesus sent His apostles to teach His word. If we receive the apostles, that is, if we accept and believe and obey their teachings, we receive Christ, and therefore God. Eternal life depends on receiving the apostles sent by Christ.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
(Matthew 10:14-15)

Failure to receive the apostles and their words, that is to say, failure to hear and obey their teachings, gives you less of a chance of making it through Judgment Day than Sodom and Gomorrha!

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Romans 6:16-18)

Obeying a specific "form of doctrine" results in deliverance from sin and makes you a servant of righteousness. The form of doctrine that delivers (saves) is that which was delivered by the apostles.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
(1 Timothy 4:16)

In order to be saved, one must take heed to themself and to the doctrine and continue in them. One must not only hear correct doctrine, the doctrine of Christ as delivered by His apostles, but one must continue or stay in that doctrine. One must take heed to oneself, one must be on guard that you do not drift away or cease to continue in the apostles' doctrine. Doing this will save you, and (if you are a teacher) it will save those who hear (receive) you. Why? You are continuing in the doctrine that saves and teaching the same, so those who receive your teaching will be receiving and continuing in the doctrine that saves!

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
(1 Timothy 6:3-5)

Those who teach otherwise than the apostles, who do not consent to (agree with and obey) wholesome words - the words or teaching of Jesus Christ as transmitted by His apostles - are "destitute of the truth", have "corrupt minds", and believers are to withdraw themselves from such people. Believers are to separate themselves from people who reject the teachings of the apostles.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Ephesians 4:14)

Any teaching (doctrine) that is not bible doctrine is a wind that blows people around in different directions. People who believe and promote false doctrine are not merely "brothers who have made a mistake" as if it is irrelevant. No, promoters of false doctrine are lying in wait to deceive. False doctrine is deception, and teachers of error are likened to murderers lying in wait to slay the innocent and unsuspecting. False teachers slay people spiritually. Since salvation depends on doctrine, and life comes from God's words, false doctrine kills the soul, and false teachers are therefore cunning and crafty spiritual murderers!

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
(Romans 16:17-18)

We are commanded to identify and separate from (disfellowship) those who create divisions and offences (occasions of stumbling) contrary to the original apostolic doctrine. False teachers who promote non apostolic doctrines cause divisions, meaning they create cliques and groups of people who do not believe the full truth but instead are following error, separating themselves from the apostolic faith. They cause offences, meaning occasions of stumbling, because false doctrine kills the soul and is a stumblingblock to people. False doctrine hinders a person's ability to know and walk in the truth, thus it is an "offence". Those who follow false teachings and false teachers are to be avoided (shunned). They do not serve Jesus Christ, in spite of their many protestations to the contrary. They serve themselves, their own desires, and by fair speeches and impressive words deceive the hearts of those who are not wise to their devices.

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
(2 John 1:6-11)

Christians are to love God and one another, and this requires walking after His commandments. Which means we are to walk in the original apostolic faith as originally delivered ("as ye have heard from the beginning"). There are many deceivers and antichrists in the world. We have to be on guard lest we lose our full reward. Those who transgress and do not continue in the doctrine of Christ DO NOT HAVE GOD. False doctrine causes you to not have God. If you abide or continue or remain in the doctrine of Christ you have both Christ and the Father (God), but if you do not continue in Christ's doctrine you do not have God at all. Any who are such who do not bring this teaching are to be rejected and disfellowshipped. To fellowship those who promote error is to partake of their error.

(continued in next post)

[Esaias]

(continued)

The doctrine of Christ is not just one teaching that says something about who or what Jesus is. The doctrine or teaching of Christ is HIS DOCTRINE, His teaching, all of it, as delivered by the apostles whom He sent.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(Hebrews 6:1-2)

Repentance and faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment are simply the "principles" or foundation elements of the doctrine of Christ. They are the foundation of Christian faith. Yet many have claimed that some of these foundation elements are optional, are not "salvific". Can you build a house if the foundation isn't laid? You may, but a strong wind will knock it over flat. The apostolic truths concerning repentance, faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment are the foundation upon which an apostolic Christian is built. Since they are the foundation, they are the things that constitute pre-conversion teaching! They are not deep mysteries to be explored years after conversion in special bible studies, they are things to be heard and believed from the beginning. And in consequence of believing them, one is expected to become a Christian! A deviation from the foundational elements of the doctrine of Christ can hardly be called "non essential" or inconsequential. Yes, your salvation depends on you having a correct understanding of repentance, faith, baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. If you are weak in those areas (as most people nowadays seem to be) you might want to get busy learning what the apostles have to say on those subjects!

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2 Timothy 4:2-4)

The word must be preached. Not man's ideas and speculations, but the word! Because people are coming who will not endure sound doctrine, they aren't going to want to hear the teachings delivered by the apostles. Instead, they will want to hear teachings that satisfy their own desires. They are going to want teaching that caters to their whims. They will turn away from hearing the truth, and shall be turned to myths. False doctrines are myths, fables, are not the truth, are the result of trying to satisfy one's personal desires, and are a mark of apostasy.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(2 Peter 2:1-3)

False teachers are those who teach falsehoods, that is, those who teach things the apostles never did. False teachers introduce damnable heresies, and bring upon themselves destruction. They destroy their fellowship with Christ, and thus destroy their souls, by destroying their fellowship with the doctrine of Christ. They go so far as to often deny the very words of Jesus Christ Himself! Their ways are pernicious, and many follow them. That means the number of people who follow the pernicious ways of false doctrine is "many", not "few". The term "pernicious ways" is apolia, and means literally ruin, destruction. It is the root of the name Apollyon in the Apocalypse, whose name means "Destruction". False doctrine is ruin and devastation to the soul. If you follow false doctrine, you are following after ruin and destruction. False doctrine will destroy your soul. False teachers also tend to make merchandise (make money off) of people. Their false doctrines are often meant to make people feel comfortable. People will pay to be comforted. So false teachers often make money off their dupes. Not only that, but they make spiritual merchandise of people, taking them captive as spiritual bondslaves and delivering them from one false doctrine to the next, like trading slaves.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Galatians 5:19-21)

Heresies are one of the works of the flesh, the practitioners of which shall not inherit the kingdom of God. False doctrine will keep you out of the kingdom of God!

There is nothing in Scripture which identifies "essential and non essential" doctrine. There is only true doctrine which saves, and false doctrine which brings damnation. The true doctrine is that which was delivered by the apostles of Jesus Christ. False doctrine is any teaching that contradicts, makes void, replaces, or stands against the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

Now, there are some things where the Scripture does not make authoritative declarations. An example would be the area of prophecy. There are many prophecies in the Bible whose interpretation is not given in the Scripture. We have no authoritative Bible interpretation or apostolic statements about how certain prophecies would be fulfilled. For example, there are no scriptures which say "Matthew 24 shall be fulfilled in such and such a manner", whether preteristically, historicistically, or futuristicly. So speculations about about how one believes the various elements (or the entirety) of Matthew 24 have been, are being, or will be fulfilled (or not) are simply private opinions. Opinions have varying weights and worths - some opinions are obviously going to be more correct than others, some opinions are going to be incorrect, etc. But the DOCTRINE of Matthew 24 cannot be denied, replaced, contradicted, or made void. THAT would be more than mere opinion, and would be false doctrine and heresy.

This is why teachers must be extra careful. They must "hold fast the form of sound words" delivered by the apostles. You cannot go wrong teaching exactly what the Bible teaches, but you may go off into error trying to "explain and make plain". Therefore you must be careful, and make certain of your words. If your explanations contradict the words of God, then you aren't explaining anything - you are destroying your own soul and those who receive your false doctrine.