UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Oh, so now the pastor has some leeway? Earlier, the conservative pastor with a not-so-conservative congregation didn't have the guts to stand for his own values. He was a dumb dog that couldn't bark.



Nobody is saying a pastor should be pro-sin, but any pastor who decides to handle those matters privately instead of "sounding the alarm" or "blowing the trumpet" should be applauded for doing what he thinks is best for his congregation.

Applauded? Since it’s whats best for the congregation then the ones doing as you would say “ sounding the alarm “ should be applauded too.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I've heard that kind of thing too. But most pastors are being tongue in cheek when they say it. lol

Not this one.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I've heard that kind of thing too. But most pastors are being tongue in cheek when they say it. lol

You cannot force morality. Want and need are totally two different things.
You can need something but if you don’t want it you just won’t do it.
It’s a church family not a church gulag. If I have to search a house to look for something I deem improper. Then they aren’t living for God, but for the Walking Boss in the mirror sunglasses.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Applauded? Since it’s whats best for the congregation then the ones doing as you would say “ sounding the alarm “ should be applauded too.

Absolutely. If a particular pastor feels God wants him to sound the alarm, then he should do so and be applauded. I said as much in another post:

Originally Posted by Ehud

And I know you didn’t mention this in your response, but I would like to clarify my stance. I don’t question that God works in myriad ways. If a pastor has a church that responds to nothing but hell fire and brimstone, then by all means go for it. But questioning a pastor’s approach because the congregation doesn’t line up well enough to suit outsiders is hogwash. Nobody should know the congregation like the pastor, so cut them some slack. That isn’t to say the pastor is infallible, but making a bad call and being a backslidden quack are totally different things.

[Apostolic1ness]

The reason sin runs rampant in some churches and not others could primarily be because the Pastor is afraid to stand up against it. Nothing will clean up the church like preaching the word and drawing lines.
Psalms119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his ways? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Exactly right, and I don't give any pastor my personal opinion if NOT asked first. He is building the work, or it is thriving and growing. You walk into a church and people are strangers to you. Visiting ministers tend to pull on the white glove and give the place a good once over. Then over at Cracker Barrel you get some free unsolicited advise about Sister Gilly Ginamae, and Uncle Fetus LeRoy, about how they both watch GOT, but both are looking as Apostolic as a 1970 Apostolic record album cover??? Or a Sister who is still wearing pants after they found out she has been in the church for over 15 years??? Hey I done it when I was a wee lamb, yet, I got egg on my face later on, when I considered the greater scope. Pastor Foofoofnick must be not hammering down the nails that are sticking out!!! He got to take charge and tell these people how the cow ate the cabbage!!! No, he must listen to God, and allow the Lord to lead him in his church family. Unhindered by anyone's unsolicited advise.

Bingo. Can't we give the guy some credit for getting them in the doors and keeping them around so they can hear the Word? It's as if the pastor is assumed incompetent until proven otherwise. How about we give him room to operate and see what the results are?

[derAlte]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The reason sin runs rampant in some churches and not others could primarily be because the Pastor is afraid to stand up against it. Nothing will clean up the church like preaching the word and drawing lines.
Psalms119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his ways? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The reason sin runs rampant in some churches and not others could primarily be because the Pastor is afraid to stand up against it. Nothing will clean up the church like preaching the word and drawing lines.
Psalms119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his ways? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Yes, if a pastor simply refuses to take a stand against sin in any shape, form, or fashion, then he is in the wrong. I doubt anyone is going to argue against that. But another reason "sin runs rampant" in some churches is because they open their doors to anyone and everyone. Instead of sounding the alarm "to take a stand," scaring off every visitor, and preaching to the same 20 saints for 35 years, the pastor just might know what he is doing by caring for a community and allowing God to do His job. Preaching Jesus from the pulpit and handling problems/sin in private is not the same as being too cowardly to take a stand against sin. That's the "longsuffering" part of your scripture reference. That pastor must have the patience of Job when dealing with such issues on a routine basis. I see no reason why teaching in private doesn't qualify as reproving, rebuking, and exhorting.

Perhaps you think killing a fly with a Howitzer is the way to go, but blowing up new converts doesn't sound very efficient. You said preachers don't preach for sport but are to be led of God. Why is it that only allows for your straight-forward approach, but not the pragmatic approach I'm defending? I'm certainly not saying there is never a time to sound the alarm, but you definitely seem to be implying if the congregation doesn't line up with the pastor, it's likely due to him being a coward.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Yes, if a pastor simply refuses to take a stand against sin in any shape, form, or fashion, then he is in the wrong. I doubt anyone is going to argue against that. But another reason "sin runs rampant" in some churches is because they open their doors to anyone and everyone. Instead of sounding the alarm "to take a stand," scaring off every visitor, and preaching to the same 20 saints for 35 years, the pastor just might know what he is doing by caring for a community and allowing God to do His job. Preaching Jesus from the pulpit and handling problems/sin in private is not the same as being too cowardly to take a stand against sin. That's the "longsuffering" part of your scripture reference. That pastor must have the patience of Job when dealing with such issues on a routine basis. I see no reason why teaching in private doesn't qualify as reproving, rebuking, and exhorting.

Perhaps you think killing a fly with a Howitzer is the way to go, but blowing up new converts doesn't sound very efficient. You said preachers don't preach for sport but are to be led of God. Why is it that only allows for your straight-forward approach, but not the pragmatic approach I'm defending? I'm certainly not saying there is never a time to sound the alarm, but you definitely seem to be implying if the congregation doesn't line up with the pastor, it's likely due to him being a coward.

blowing up new converts? I think you take me a little more harsh that intended.