UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I think your assuming a pastor just preaches for sport. It depends on what God desires to say to the church and what direction God wants to take the church.

Oh, so now the pastor has some leeway? Earlier, the conservative pastor with a not-so-conservative congregation didn't have the guts to stand for his own values. He was a dumb dog that couldn't bark.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The point is unless a stand is taken against sin, sin will be among the people. Whether its Hollywood or fornication or homosexuality or whatever. The pastor must sound the alarm and blow the trumpet to let the people understand that sin is not tolerated among the saints. All in a spirit of grace of course.

Nobody is saying a pastor should be pro-sin, but any pastor who decides to handle those matters privately instead of "sounding the alarm" or "blowing the trumpet" should be applauded for doing what he thinks is best for his congregation.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

Thats not what I meant by a "clean"platform

Thats not what I mean by "clean" leadership

I know that's not really what you meant. I believe I know what you mean by clean leadership, but what's a clean platform?

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

the Pastor's expectations for leadership based on the bible

In many cases, I've found the Pastor's expectations include things which the Pastor themselves admit are not in the Bible, but are matters of personal preference.

I previously attended a church within the last year and the Pastor told me he couldn't point to the Bible or show the Bible being against facial hair, but his preference was that a man who wanted to be in leadership or used on the platform be clean shaven.

I love the Pastor and that church. Even though I'm not attending there today, I love them and won't say a bad word against them. I just simply don't agree.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Nobody is saying a pastor should be pro-sin, but any pastor who decides to handle those matters privately instead of "sounding the alarm" or "blowing the trumpet" should be applauded for doing what he thinks is best for his congregation.

I'm old enough to remember when Pastors would call out someone's sin or wrongdoing during the message. Then you had Evangelists who would come preach revival services and would "read your mail."

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by n david

I'm old enough to remember when Pastors would call out someone's sin or wrongdoing during the message. Then you had Evangelists who would come preach revival services and would "read your mail."

Was this *accepted* practice?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Was this *accepted* practice?

They wouldn't have pre knowledge and then preach it over the pulpit. Neither would the evangelist be briefed of certain conditions going on in the church family. Now those are the real deal guys. Now as far as others, yeah they may have foreknowledge, and give details to the evangelist. But an evangelist should not get a briefing. Because it will mess everything up. The Holy Ghost will do what it needs to do, and we don't need to give it a jump start. Because we actually can't. But if we remain sensitive to where Jesus wants to go then it can all be a blessing.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

They wouldn't have pre knowledge and then preach it over the pulpit. Neither would the evangelist be briefed of certain conditions going on in the church family. Now those are the real deal guys. Now as far as others, yeah they may have foreknowledge, and give details to the evangelist. But an evangelist should not get a briefing. Because it will mess everything up. The Holy Ghost will do what it needs to do, and we don't need to give it a jump start. Because we actually can't. But if we remain sensitive to where Jesus wants to go then it can all be a blessing.

I can go for that a whole lot more than what I was imagining. I was envisioning a pastor with a week’s worth of ammo piled up calling out those in the pews or a “hired gun” evangelist brought in to do the dirty work.

And I know you didn’t mention this in your response, but I would like to clarify my stance. I don’t question that God works in myriad ways. If a pastor has a church that responds to nothing but hell fire and brimstone, then by all means go for it. But questioning a pastor’s approach because the congregation doesn’t line up well enough to suit outsiders is hogwash. Nobody should know the congregation like the pastor, so cut them some slack. That isn’t to say the pastor is infallible, but making a bad call and being a backslidden quack are totally different things.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

They wouldn't have pre knowledge and then preach it over the pulpit. Neither would the evangelist be briefed of certain conditions going on in the church family. Now those are the real deal guys. Now as far as others, yeah they may have foreknowledge, and give details to the evangelist. But an evangelist should not get a briefing. Because it will mess everything up. The Holy Ghost will do what it needs to do, and we don't need to give it a jump start. Because we actually can't. But if we remain sensitive to where Jesus wants to go then it can all be a blessing.

Now, my father would call people out....mostly young people messing around during the message. But the Evangelists were spot on and the real deals.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Was this *accepted* practice?

Oh yeah.

My parents didn't talk "shop" at home. They kept the church issues in the Pastor's office. No one left the church over it. May have had tender toes for a minute, but people weren't so easily offended as they are today.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by n david

Most pastors, even those who aren't policing people's private lives, preach against sin.


You're preaching to the choir here! I hate seeing a messy platform. Speaker, instrument and microphone wires running all over the place. Least you can do is get some fake plants and trees to hide things.


Proper hygiene is very important. Ministers should always carry a small pack of Altoids in their pocket so they can pop one in their mouth before praying with someone. I cannot stand a minister getting right up in my face with bad breath.


Amen!


Amen!


Would to God it was real, Biblical holiness -- not the American Apostolic church dress version. So many Oneness Apostolic churches around the world have varying interpretations of what "holiness standards" are. The UPC in India allows women to wear pants because "it's their culture." But women in the US are splitting hell open for doing the same. Here in the USA, most churches allow black and hispanic men to wear facial hair because "it's their culture." But a white man can't do the same. Some churches are against short sleeve shirts on men. Some believe women must wear hose and their hair up. Some are against colored/print dress shirts on men. Some against rings, tie tacks/bars, etc.

Yet, we all agree on the oneness of the Godhead and the New Birth plan of salvation. You won't find UPC in one area believe one thing about the Godhead and another believe something else. You won't find ALJC in one area believe the New Birth and another ALJC believe something else.

It's only the extra stuff with which we find so much variance and different beliefs.

IMHO, stop majoring on the minors and start preaching the Gospel. You can't legislate holiness or Godliness. That's a work of God in the heart.

Thus saith and Amen.


Whose expectations?

Brother, you are cracking me up!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Ehud

I can go for that a whole lot more than what I was imagining. I was envisioning a pastor with a week’s worth of ammo piled up calling out those in the pews or a “hired gun” evangelist brought in to do the dirty work.

And I know you didn’t mention this in your response, but I would like to clarify my stance. I don’t question that God works in myriad ways. If a pastor has a church that responds to nothing but hell fire and brimstone, then by all means go for it. But questioning a pastor’s approach because the congregation doesn’t line up well enough to suit outsiders is hogwash. Nobody should know the congregation like the pastor, so cut them some slack. That isn’t to say the pastor is infallible, but making a bad call and being a backslidden quack are totally different things.

Exactly right, and I don't give any pastor my personal opinion if NOT asked first. He is building the work, or it is thriving and growing. You walk into a church and people are strangers to you. Visiting ministers tend to pull on the white glove and give the place a good once over. Then over at Cracker Barrel you get some free unsolicited advise about Sister Gilly Ginamae, and Uncle Fetus LeRoy, about how they both watch GOT, but both are looking as Apostolic as a 1970 Apostolic record album cover??? Or a Sister who is still wearing pants after they found out she has been in the church for over 15 years??? Hey I done it when I was a wee lamb, yet, I got egg on my face later on, when I considered the greater scope. Pastor Foofoofnick must be not hammering down the nails that are sticking out!!! He got to take charge and tell these people how the cow ate the cabbage!!! No, he must listen to God, and allow the Lord to lead him in his church family. Unhindered by anyone's unsolicited advise.