One In The Greek

[Evang.Benincasa]

So, when it all comes down to the wording, we check the context of all scripture together. Understanding that Jesus is the total pinnacle. If He isn't the same as the father, then why did He say so? John 14:9, has Jesus asking a Greek Judian Don't you know me, if you have seen me you have seen the father. That in no way is speaking about seeing something physically, but knowing, understanding. To the ancient Greeks the word ἑωρακὼς meant to see with ones mind, which in plain English is understanding someone clearly as you are looking straight at it. While the Greek word Jesus uses in I and the father are one doesn't have a meaning for unity, or togetherness. Other Greek words known to first century Romans and Judeans alike would of been employed if they wanted to convey that message. You see, Trinitarians fall back on the lameness that it is all a mystery. Then if that is the case, then the discussion is ll over, and the Trinitarian just needs to admit that he or she are clueless. Therefore why on earth are they trying to straighten out anyone on doctrine. Since it is all some unattainable truth. They admit that they don't even know what they are talking about. The Greek and most of all the Hebrew you don't know what I know would be scholarship is baloney. Because no one needs to know anything other language other than their own to know the One God Truth. Or Jesus name baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost. Uncle Boudreaux, with a basic understanding of French, or English can pick up the Bible and see the Mighty God in Jesus, and that Jesus is the father.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So what about hen/heis controversy?

Is it irrelevant?

I'm not really sure what I think about it right now. I haven't studied it enough.

Here are some verses that probably need to be considered:

John 17.11: And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one (hen), even as we are one ["one" here is not actually in the Greek but is implied from the context].

John 17:21-23: 21 that they may all be one (hen), just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one (hen) even as we are one (hen), 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one (hen), so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

Here when Jesus says he and the Father are one it does not seem that he is saying they are the same person, but are in the closest possible relationship. Jesus even describes him and the Father as "us." He prays that the believers would have the same kind of unity.

Here is an example where "hen" is used of two people who are working together: 1 Cor 3.8: He who plants and he who waters are one (hen), and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Again, everything is based on context within the sentence. The Bible is taught in a whole, not in bits and pieces. Jesus speaks as Himself as God, and that He is the father. In Revelation 21:7 Jesus calls Himself the father who is God and that the Church is His son.

In koine and modern Greek one means one, and from Byzantine Greek ἕν became ἕνα, still meaning one. The accusative εἷς. Again, One God the mighty God in Jesus is taught to us in KJV English (that's how I came to learn it) and in every language the Bible has be interpretaly translated into, all can see Jesus as literally ONE GOD.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I'm not really sure what I think about it right now. I haven't studied it enough.

Here are some verses that probably need to be considered:

John 17.11: And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one (hen), even as we are one ["one" here is not actually in the Greek but is implied from the context].

John 17:21-23: 21 that they may all be one (hen), just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one (hen) even as we are one (hen), 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one (hen), so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

Here when Jesus says he and the Father are one it does not seem that he is saying they are the same person, but are in the closest possible relationship. Jesus even describes him and the Father as "us." He prays that the believers would have the same kind of unity.

Here is an example where "hen" is used of two people who are working together: 1 Cor 3.8: He who plants and he who waters are one (hen), and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

The verses you posted I believe by context is Jesus talking to God in his humanity. Indeed describing the close relationship he had/has with the Father and what he desires with the saints.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

1 John 5:7 still comes up a lot in discussions I have had. It came up a few days ago.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

I am aware of the controversy around it. I can say that it was used by my cousin many years ago to spark my curiosity about Oneness..

There is solid evidence that Eusebius considered the verse as too oneness.

Pure Bible Forum
Jeroen Beekhuizen - The Comma Johanneum revisited
Eusebius and the Sabellian controversies
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...=1699#post1699

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

There is solid evidence that Eusebius considered the verse as too oneness.

Pure Bible Forum
Jeroen Beekhuizen - The Comma Johanneum revisited
Eusebius and the Sabellian controversies
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...=1699#post1699

Excellent, thank you Brother Avery!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

There is solid evidence that Eusebius considered the verse as too oneness.

Pure Bible Forum
Jeroen Beekhuizen - The Comma Johanneum revisited
Eusebius and the Sabellian controversies
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...=1699#post1699

Amen

[Michael The Disciple]

If heis and hen are supposed to somehow be different, at least in context of Oneness-Trinity discussions why this?

Εἷς (Heis)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.

Heis includes hen?

Here is an example where "hen" is used of two people who are working together: 1 Cor 3.8: He who plants and he who waters are one (hen), and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

Yet on page 718 of my Youngs Concordance he lists this word "one" under the category of "heis"?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The verses you posted I believe by context is Jesus talking to God in his humanity. Indeed describing the close relationship he had/has with the Father and what he desires with the saints.

How can Jesus and the Father be one person yet Jesus be in close relationship with and talk with the Father? How can Jesus be described as "he" in distinction from the Father, when he and the Father are one person?

Do you think of or refer to the Father and Jesus as "they" since Jesus describes his relationship with the Father as "We" and "us"? Jesus in one place even likens he and the Father to two witnesses giving testimony: "16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me" (John 8.16-18).

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If heis and hen are supposed to somehow be different, at least in context of Oneness-Trinity discussions why this?

Εἷς (Heis)
Adjective - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 1520: One. (including the neuter Hen); a primary numeral; one.

Heis includes hen?



Yet on page 718 of my Youngs Concordance he lists this word "one" under the category of "heis"?

Heis and hen are two different forms of the same word, the former being masculine and the latter neuter.

From a previous post: "The difference between the Greek word one and the English word one is that the Greek word is inflected, that is, it has different forms depending on if it's modifying a masculine, feminine, or neuter word and depending on its grammatical case (nominative, genitive, dative, or accusative)."

That's the most basic way to explain it; however, what about situations where one is not just modifying another single noun? With single nouns it's easy: if the noun is masculine gender, heis will be used; if the noun is feminine, mia, will be used. If the noun is neuter, then hen will be used. The issue to come to terms with is why Greek uses the neuter form to describe Jesus's oneness with the Father instead of heis. What is the significance to that? I don't know. But Trinitarians do note this usage and use it to assert Jesus is not personally the Father.

It may simply be that when two nouns are described as one, hen is always used. (I'm not sure if this is so because I have not looked up every example of this, though I have seen a lot of them.) Then we would have to determine from context what the oneness means. I have shown that the neuter form hen can be used of Jesus and the Father when it is not referring to oneness of person but of unity or relationship. Context determines that.