Tony Spell has church in spite of the ban

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by n david

Per the WWPF website, Spell or his church is part of the organization.

http://www.worldwidepf.com/directory...&address_type=

Thanks for verifying.

[Tithesmeister]

I would like to hear from pastors or elders who incorporated as a 501c3. What was their motivation for doing so?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Ron

Hi PO, I can see that as well. If you go into any Church, you could ask the members, how many people have you wirnessed to, how many have you brought to Church, how many have you won and it will be surprising what you will find out.
I used to be over cell ministry in the last Church before this one. There are some pitfalls there as well. One time we had a person move in and started teaching stuff that wasn't our core doctrine. Another one became unaccountable, and yet another thought they were on par with Pastor, or as a Ministerial equal.
I am glad when we left to start this new work, the kids were sad that they and a set of twins that were slightly older were the only kids. I told them to pray about it and invite their friends.
They did and in one service, I think it was Resurrection Sunday, Alanna had 14 if her friends out.
We definitely need to think out of the box and while I have learnt some things, I am by no means arrogant enough to say that I can't learn from someone else.

I agree. What I got tired of during some home groups and Bible studies is that everyone wanted to talk about Revelations ALL the TIME.

I wanted to say, Why are you so concerned about the end times? If you aren’t interested in any other part of the NT, you will be lost anyway.

Sorry. That still annoys me. Lol!

So, one thing I heard a minister say is that we are hurting ourselves worrying about church growth and numbers. He said that, some plant, some water, but it is God that gives the increase. That is another whole discussion. We certainly can’t get ahead of God’s plan for ourselves or the church body we are working with.

I too don’t have all the answers and am willing to learn. I just want to make sure I am following God’s plan for my life and not suggestions other people have for me. It must be God’s will or it can be even more frustrating than waiting on Him. There are things we will have to work toward, through prayer, fasting and study, and things we will have to wait on God for.

In patience possess ye your soul...

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I think, 50 years ago, his grandfather was part of the AMF group. I know some of them, if not all, left the UPCI. I don’t know if Brother Spell was part of the UPCI or not. I’m thinking not. I don’t know if the AMF is still viable, but I think it is.

I don’t think Brother Tony Spell is WPF, but he may be. I think he is independent. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

Yes he is WPF

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yes he is WPF

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I would like to hear from pastors or elders who incorporated as a 501c3. What was their motivation for doing so?

Some people that want to donate require the actual certificate because they don’t understand the law. We have planned on getting the certificate for this purpose.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yes he is WPF

Does anyone know if the AMF is still a thing? Is he still in AMF? I’m assuming he was in the AMF, because his grandfather was one of the founders of it, if I understand correctly. I suppose he could be a member of both, but I find that unlikely. I know at the beginning of WPF some members of UPCI were members of both organizations. I don’t know if they still are.

I think, about fifteen years ago, the AMF suffered a substantial membership loss. I’m not sure if they even survived.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Okay. Churches are automatically considered tax exempt. They have been (to my knowledge) since the UNITED STATES was born. Separation of church and state, and all that. There is a difference in being tax exempt and being a 501c3 though.



No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

To my knowledge, churches have never been taxed by the government in the United States. Why? Because the government has no authority over them as a religious organization. Some here have pointed out, and correctly so, that the government has jurisdiction over the building that the church meets in. Sewer, fire codes, plumbing, electrical etc..

So, as I have said before on here, the government has limited authority over the building, and some codes that are tangled up in the construction of the building, but they have no authority over whether, when, how often, you meet, or what doctrine is taught by the church. It is really none of their business.

UNLESS . . . They are a 501c3. Because, no church is automatically a 501c3. They are mostly QUALIFIED for 501c3. They have to apply for that dubious distinction. So . . . Think about that for a moment.

They apply to whom, for that designation?

They apply to the Secretary of State of the state they are geographically located in, Louisiana for Brother Spell. They are applying for the right to abandon their status as a separate entity from the state. They are begging (begging is maybe a bit strong verbiage here, but I’m making a point) for recognition of the fact that they are voluntarily giving up their status of separation from the state. I have NEVER heard of any church being turned down. The church of Scientology was initially, but they appealed and were granted status.

So what happens when they are granted this status? They give up the status of separation, and agree to incorporate, under the laws of the State of Louisiana, in the case of Brother Spell. A corporation is a legal entity. Incorporated UNDER the laws of the state is a legal matter. The church that is incorporated under the laws of the state, are legally bound to obey the laws of that state that apply to such corporations.

That’s the condensed version, as I understand it. Some people are going to dispute this, no doubt, but I have studied it somewhat and I’m pretty sure this is accurate.

Why do churches give up their sovereignty? Because it is widely believed to be a good deal for them. And . . .

DONATIONS ARE OFFICIALLY TAX DEDUCTIBLE. So it comes back to money. The thing is that donations to churches are not disputed by the IRS anyway. But that’s all part of the illusion.

Some will believe,and they may say, otherwise. But law is not opinion. And 591c3 is a matter of law. I welcome other opinions, but I’d like to see documentation. If some would like to verify what I’m saying, or would like to dispute it, do a search on 501c3 status. It is a designation found in IRS tax code.

You're in over your head on this one. I am a CPA that is well aware of what it means to be a 501(c)(3) organization. Simply calling yourself a church does not make you tax exempt. Meeting the specifications of section 501(c)(3) -- or other code section for that matter -- is what makes you tax exempt.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-pr...ns-of-churches

Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt.

So if you believe that government oversight is hinged on being a 501(c)(3), I have some bad news for ya. And given that such applicability can be extended to unincorporated associations, if you truly want to avoid government oversight in the church world, I suggest house churches with no pooling of funds or centralized authority.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Okay. Churches are automatically considered tax exempt. They have been (to my knowledge) since the UNITED STATES was born. Separation of church and state, and all that. There is a difference in being tax exempt and being a 501c3 though.



No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

To my knowledge, churches have never been taxed by the government in the United States. Why? Because the government has no authority over them as a religious organization. Some here have pointed out, and correctly so, that the government has jurisdiction over the building that the church meets in. Sewer, fire codes, plumbing, electrical etc..

So, as I have said before on here, the government has limited authority over the building, and some codes that are tangled up in the construction of the building, but they have no authority over whether, when, how often, you meet, or what doctrine is taught by the church. It is really none of their business.

UNLESS . . . They are a 501c3. Because, no church is automatically a 501c3. They are mostly QUALIFIED for 501c3. They have to apply for that dubious distinction. So . . . Think about that for a moment.

They apply to whom, for that designation?

They apply to the Secretary of State of the state they are geographically located in, Louisiana for Brother Spell. They are applying for the right to abandon their status as a separate entity from the state. They are begging (begging is maybe a bit strong verbiage here, but I’m making a point) for recognition of the fact that they are voluntarily giving up their status of separation from the state. I have NEVER heard of any church being turned down. The church of Scientology was initially, but they appealed and were granted status.

So what happens when they are granted this status? They give up the status of separation, and agree to incorporate, under the laws of the State of Louisiana, in the case of Brother Spell. A corporation is a legal entity. Incorporated UNDER the laws of the state is a legal matter. The church that is incorporated under the laws of the state, are legally bound to obey the laws of that state that apply to such corporations.

That’s the condensed version, as I understand it. Some people are going to dispute this, no doubt, but I have studied it somewhat and I’m pretty sure this is accurate.

Why do churches give up their sovereignty? Because it is widely believed to be a good deal for them. And . . .

DONATIONS ARE OFFICIALLY TAX DEDUCTIBLE. So it comes back to money. The thing is that donations to churches are not disputed by the IRS anyway. But that’s all part of the illusion.

Some will believe, and they may say, otherwise. But law is not opinion. And 501c3 is a matter of law. I welcome other opinions, but I’d like to see documentation. If some would like to verify what I’m saying, or would like to dispute it, do a search on 501c3 status. It is a designation found in IRS tax code.

Originally Posted by Ehud

You're in over your head on this one. I am a CPA that is well aware of what it means to be a 501(c)(3) organization. Simply calling yourself a church does not make you tax exempt. Meeting the specifications of section 501(c)(3) -- or other code section for that matter -- is what makes you tax exempt.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-pr...ns-of-churches

Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt.

So if you believe that government oversight is hinged on being a 501(c)(3), I have some bad news for ya. And given that such applicability can be extended to unincorporated associations, if you truly want to avoid government oversight in the church world, I suggest house churches with no pooling of funds or centralized authority.

Okay. What specifically is the difference in what you have said, and what I said? It appears to me that you have said the same thing.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Does anyone know if the AMF is still a thing? Is he still in AMF? I’m assuming he was in the AMF, because his grandfather was one of the founders of it, if I understand correctly. I suppose he could be a member of both, but I find that unlikely. I know at the beginning of WPF some members of UPCI were members of both organizations. I don’t know if they still are.

I think, about fifteen years ago, the AMF suffered a substantial membership loss. I’m not sure if they even survived.

Very few AMF churches but they are still around. We fellowship a lot of former AMF churches that are now independent. Timothy Spell was upci for many years but To my knowledge he isn’t anymore. Tony Spell is WPF......He has one of the best soul winning conferences every year. Some of my friends have attended and it is educational and inspiring. Tony Spell actually goes himself every Sunday in a bus to pick up kids ( they run 26 busses ). He really lives what he preaches.