Let me say that I find it odd that you will not recognize the truth that Ferd has very rudimentarily posted here. That truth is that the devil has always used untruths to mislead humanity. It is what he does. The idea of a trinity hacks away at the very foundation of what and who God is. Of course the devil wants to bring confusion and misinformation into the doctrine of the Godhead. Tritheism acccomplishes this goal in a magnificant way.
I did recognize it. I even brought up the Adam and Eve thing. What I talking about is that the devil using the trinity as a tool is ubsurd. It is a dumb thought. Tritheism is on a whole different level than believing in a trinity. Sure the devil wants to confuse people. But I think that we people that think we are sooooo smart and got things figured out do the work for him. We confuse each other. You know what though if God did not want us to see Himself as more than just Jesus then why does he have different manifestation? Burning bush, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster
Here, we have taken the most simple of biblical truths, which is laced throughout the entire canon, and twisted it into a mangled mess of theological confusion. The Shemah is the foundational truth of Judeo-Christian belief. Our God is ONE. Any attempt to divide His nature into categories defined as persons is futile and akin to blasphemy. There is only one person in God - the man Christ Jesus.
The Shemah is straight. Trinitarians do not serve different gods. They serve one as do I. To a Jew God has different manifestations too. Does that mean that a Jew is wrong for that belief?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster
"Hath God said" is the most powerful weapon in the devil's aresnal. It places doubt in the heart of a believer. Doubt in God's word and doubt as to His very nature. The trinity is a "hath God said" issue. It asks the question "Is God who He says He is?" Do we believe His repeated claim of "no other beside me" or do we allow unbelief to crowd that Truth from our minds?
No it is not. That is a crazy statement. Trinitarians may see the Godhead wrong, but they are not being led astray by anything other than a misunderstanging pastor or teacher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster
So of course the trinity is a damnable heresy. Of course the devil wants that doctrine propagated. How best to strike at the heart of the humanity/divinity relationship than to confuse humanity as to who God really is?
The devil wants us in sin. If he can steer us off track to get there that is what he wants. But to say it is damnable is childish. How can they hear with out a preacher. Is there room for revelation? Yes! Then let that room exist. You and others are writting these people off as if they have stamped their ticket to hell.
In the BOLD statement above....
The devil wants the attention we give to God. The devil tries to take our affection and turn it toward him. Believing in the trinity does not turn anyone toward the devil. In human nature there is always a desire to know God more. We always want to go deeper in knowledge of Him. But when people say things like you and others are saying it only separates us from God. The reason is people stand there with a God stick beating everyone up.
I respect you alot PP, but I think that you are wrong here. IMO
His word burns in my heart like a fire...Fire Fall Down
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
If it's two different things it's contradictory I mean. In otherwords if there is an authority/name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and then there is an authority/name of Jesus that's two different authorities. If they the same then it's redundant, Redundant Redu...oh never mind
It's time for you to go make the donuts..... since you love chasing your tail (running in donuts...I mean circles)....
A few of my rambling thoughts after starting this thread and reading responses. First off, I am oneness to the core. I love the oneness for what it is and what it means that God did for us on Calvary. I will NOT compromise my belief which I believe is FIRMLY founded in the word of God. I have never taught anything different and have spent considerable amount of my energy studying and teaching it.
That being the case, let me state that I used to be extremely dogmatic that anyone who believed in the Trinity was lost, no passing go etc! I was a firebrand against anyone who believed in trinitarianism. Because I "knew" I was right, I felt justified in un-Christian behavior toward trinitarians. It is sooooo easy to take pot shots at folks you don't know and are already convinced smell of "sulphur."
However, when you begin to really know and begin to pray with some of these folks who you are convinced are lost and find out that they really have a relationship with Jesus Christ (correct understanding or not) you realize that your beliefs don't jive with reality. I'm not talking about "nice" people. I'm talking about godly people; Christian people; HG filled people. Their relationship with God cannot be denied due to the fruit that is evident in their lives. Jesus stated that we would know them by their fruits.
I'm certainly not saying that we ignore error. What I am saying is that many trinitarians are not near as tri-theistic as we paint them. Others are just as tri-theistic as some of us say. I have heard from both camps. It has been my experience that the really tri-theistic ones are more of the exception rather than the rule.
To label all or even most trinitarians influenced by demons or state that they are willfully rejecting truth, IMO, is just not correct. We ALL have our areas where truth needs to shine more brightly just like the trinitarians we so easily castigate. What makes my area of need any less than theirs?
I did recognize it. I even brought up the Adam and Eve thing. What I talking about is that the devil using the trinity as a tool is ubsurd. It is a dumb thought. Tritheism is on a whole different level than believing in a trinity. Sure the devil wants to confuse people. But I think that we people that think we are sooooo smart and got things figured out do the work for him. We confuse each other. You know what though if God did not want us to see Himself as more than just Jesus then why does he have different manifestation? Burning bush, etc.
The Shemah is straight. Trinitarians do not serve different gods. They serve one as do I. To a Jew God has different manifestations too. Does that mean that a Jew is wrong for that belief?
No it is not. That is a crazy statement. Trinitarians may see the Godhead wrong, but they are not being led astray by anything other than a misunderstanging pastor or teacher.
The devil wants us in sin. If he can steer us off track to get there that is what he wants. But to say it is damnable is childish. How can they hear with out a preacher. Is there room for revelation? Yes! Then let that room exist. You and others are writting these people off as if they have stamped their ticket to hell.
In the BOLD statement above....
The devil wants the attention we give to God. The devil tries to take our affection and turn it toward him. Believing in the trinity does not turn anyone toward the devil. In human nature there is always a desire to know God more. We always want to go deeper in knowledge of Him. But when people say things like you and others are saying it only separates us from God. The reason is people stand there with a God stick beating everyone up.
I respect you alot PP, but I think that you are wrong here. IMO
JT, I have said this before but it bears repeating. Of course you dont see the doctrine of the trinity as a bad thing. neither that doctrine nor what it leads to (namely baptism in the titles) as an issue! Of course you think anyone who doesnt believe like you do is wrong.
For you, repentance is salvation. Period. all the rest become acts of the saved. Not so with those of us who believe the Water Spirit doctrine. thus baptism is very important.
I take exception with your assessmenet. Your problem with me isnt that I believe that the doctrine of the trinity has condemned more people than any other thing. Your problem with me is that I dont believe you are saved when you repent.
you can call it stupid or dumb all you want but if you take Peter's words at face value, as I do, there are repurcussions...
the trinity doesnt necessarily turn people away from God but it sure gives them a false sense of security. As far as I am concerned that is as bad if not worse.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
A few of my rambling thoughts after starting this thread and reading responses. First off, I am oneness to the core. I love the oneness for what it is and what it means that God did for us on Calvary. I will NOT compromise my belief which I believe is FIRMLY founded in the word of God. I have never taught anything different and have spent considerable amount of my energy studying and teaching it.
That being the case, let me state that I used to be extremely dogmatic that anyone who believed in the Trinity was lost, no passing go etc! I was a firebrand against anyone who believed in trinitarianism. Because I "knew" I was right, I felt justified in un-Christian behavior toward trinitarians. It is sooooo easy to take pot shots at folks you don't know and are already convinced smell of "sulphur."
However, when you begin to really know and begin to pray with some of these folks who you are convinced are lost and find out that they really have a relationship with Jesus Christ (correct understanding or not) you realize that your beliefs don't jive with reality. I'm not talking about "nice" people. I'm talking about godly people; Christian people; HG filled people. Their relationship with God cannot be denied due to the fruit that is evident in their lives. Jesus stated that we would know them by their fruits.
I'm certainly not saying that we ignore error. What I am saying is that many trinitarians are not near as tri-theistic as we paint them. Others are just as tri-theistic as some of us say. I have heard from both camps. It has been my experience that the really tri-theistic ones are more of the exception rather than the rule.
To label all or even most trinitarians influenced by demons or state that they are willfully rejecting truth, IMO, is just not correct. We ALL have our areas where truth needs to shine more brightly just like the trinitarians we so easily castigate. What makes my area of need any less than theirs?
Again, your issue isnt with my believe in the trinity being heracy that leads to spritual death. your issue is with what it takes to be saved.
of course you dont have a problem with someone being baptized in the titles even if you do think it is error.
because you think they were saved before they were baptized in any manner.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
JT, I have said this before but it bears repeating. Of course you dont see the doctrine of the trinity as a bad thing. neither that doctrine nor what it leads to (namely baptism in the titles) as an issue! Of course you think anyone who doesnt believe like you do is wrong.
For you, repentance is salvation. Period. all the rest become acts of the saved. Not so with those of us who believe the Water Spirit doctrine. thus baptism is very important.
I take exception with your assessmenet. Your problem with me isnt that I believe that the doctrine of the trinity has condemned more people than any other thing. Your problem with me is that I dont believe you are saved when you repent.
you can call it stupid or dumb all you want but if you take Peter's words at face value, as I do, there are repurcussions...
the trinity doesnt necessarily turn people away from God but it sure gives them a false sense of security. As far as I am concerned that is as bad if not worse.
Ferd, I never said salvation is at repentance. I believe that is where it starts. Repentance is the forgiveness and remission. Baptism is the completion of that as well. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. Infact, I like to debate back and forth. I do not think that the doctrine of the trinity is not damnable. I think it is just a misunderstanding of scripture.
I guess you are right to a point here....it can give them a false sense of security if they think praying a sinners prayer is sealing salvation. But I do not think anyone has to believe the oneness of God to go to heaven. One every knee will bow and confess. Some do it now, some will then.
I do not think that the doctrine of the trinity is not damnable. I think it is just a misunderstanding of scripture.
If we are going condemn a boat load of bible Christian believers to hell for misunderstanding scripture ...
then we might as well send those that believe in extrabiblical standards, preach and teach that tithing is a NT principle ...
or even those who teach, as one preacher shared here yesterday, the "divine blood" doctrine, ... which is that Mary was impregnated with God's blood cell/sperma.
Do I think that the Oneness model of view and understanding God is more clear in scripture? Yes. Does help me understand God better? Yes, but perhaps because it's what I've heard my whole life.
Can I send folks to Hell that have placed their faith in the Son of God, believe that Jesus is God and that there is One God??? ... IMPOSSIBLE ... simply because I'm not God!!!
Nor will I say that their father is the devil ... or that they have succumb to demonic teaching .... especially when many are living a more Spirit-filled life than even myself .... if they are baptized in the Spirit ... they are either His or His.
How can we say that a heresy behind the transforming of lives or baptizing people w/ the power of the Holy Ghost. God is not a liar.
I will say it again, it is amazing to me how God has used primarily trinitarians to "evangelize" this world and do the majority of the work of the church, write books etc.
Apparently God doesn't have the same problem hanging around trinitarians, answering their prayers, healing their sick, receiving their martyrs, showing up in their church services etc. as we do!
With one fell swoop, God could give the AOG the oneness revelation or a host of other Spirit filled groups, for that matter. For some strange reason, He chooses not to do so. It must be so that the oneness orgs could fight over who gets the credit for it when THEY give the revelation to them.
__________________
"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
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