Interesting Trinitarian Statement - trithestic?

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

But Brother, if they may mean to agree with our thinking why are they so vehemently predisposed to call us a cult because of our view on the Godhead? The reason is that modern trinitarianism views the term "persons" to represent what we normally think of a person as. Distinction. Not in manifestation - but in presence of being.

We can all talk about what was ORIGINALLY MEANT by trinitarians but the simple truth is we are all left with what is presently accepted by modern trinitarians. That is the One God-three persons ideal. Coequal, coexistent, coeternal.

Surely none of you deny the reality that orthodox trinitarianism accepts the notion of God in three persons?

What was originally meant is the only correct version of the trinity doctrine. I agree that most modern trinitarians think of "persons" and use it in a way that is synonymous with "beings" but that is not what the original doctrine taught. I agree that many modern statements of faith use phrases like "co-equal, co-eternal divine persons" but such developments came not from the Nicene and Ante-Nicene fathers but by subsequent theologians who changed the doctrine (such as Cyril insisting that "hypostasis" be used individually for Father, Son and Holy Spirit even though that isn't how Hebrews 1:3 uses it).

I do deny that orthodox trinitarianism accepts the notion of God in three persons because the English language didn't exist when the orthodox doctrine (as opposed to Orthodox doctrine) was developed in the first four centuries A.D. and "persons" is specifically an English word.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Chan

Did you notice that they never actually defined "persons."

And doesn't this sound a lot like the Roman Catholic "it's a mystery" excuse: "but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained."

Yes, I did notice.

Thanks for the honesty.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, I did notice.

Thanks for the honesty.

When I was doing the research for my most recent book, I had the hardest time trying to get other trinitarians to actually tell me what they meant when they used the term "persons."

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Modalism, in its pure form, is not oneness. Modalsim states that God cannot be in more than one "mode" at a time.

I am not a modalist.

LOL! which is why I said "modelists in one or more of its forms..."

its kind of a broad area.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

That confusion increases when people like John Ankerberg specifically define "persons" as "centers of consciousness" (as he did in his book on cults). Most trinitarians have never studied the doctrine and only parrot what they've heard their pastors and others say about it. Even my former pastor admitted to me that he had never actually studied the doctrine for himself and that he just took it for granted.

Did you give him a copy of your book?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Did you give him a copy of your book?

He made the statement before I finished writing it. I think I did give him a copy after it came out.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I will say it again, it is amazing to me how God has used primarily trinitarians to "evangelize" this world and do the majority of the work of the church, write books etc.

Apparently God doesn't have the same problem hanging around trinitarians, answering their prayers, healing their sick, receiving their martyrs, showing up in their church services etc. as we do!

With one fell swoop, God could give the AOG the oneness revelation or a host of other Spirit filled groups, for that matter. For some strange reason, He chooses not to do so. It must be so that the oneness orgs could fight over who gets the credit for it when THEY give the revelation to them.

That's only because there are more Trinitarians than Oneness and anything that is not considered mainstream is marginalized. We have books but the major Christian bookhouses are not going to carry them. We evangelize the world and often face opposition FROM the Trinitarians

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

You are right if you are talking about a Tritheist. Most Trinitarian believe the very same as you except do not know God's name as Jesus and they explain the attribute of Jesus in correctly. Most of them accually see the God head not as three different individuals, but ONE with different attributes. Depends on who you talk to.

WRONG again. Most Trinitarians do NOT believe the very same as he. They believe Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three individual persons. Not three manifestations or forms of the SAME person. Most Trinitarians also in fact DO believe the Son is subordinate in authority to the Father.

They note just as us, the bible says the Father SENT the Son and not the Son just went himself.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

Finally, there are a number of verses in the Old Testament in which the triunity of God is directly expressed:
• Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His Son's name? Surely you know! (Proverbs 30:4)

Wrong. This is not the author speaking about God. That is a Trinitarian
eisegesis

. This verse is talking about man and mans weakness and futility compared to God. He is asking rhetorically WHO has ascended and descended, WHo has gathered the wind in His fist....what is his name and what is his son's name if you can tell

• Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. (Isaiah 11:1-2)

I don't see how this shows three persons who are one essence. Please explain how this shows a Trinity. This is prophetic

• "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1)

Again, how is this the Trinity? Are you saying God the Son is the Father's servant? Is this not prophetic?

• "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." (Isaiah 48:16)

Another Trinitarian eisegesis. The person saying "and not the Lord God has sent me and His Spirit is Isaiah. He was a prophet, sent to deliver these words
"Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there." And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.

God is being quoted by Isaiah in quotes saying I have not spoken in secret...I was there. Then Isaiah speaks. When a prophet says "thus saith the Lord" it's everything that follows that part that is what the Lord is actually saying.

• The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; (Isaiah 61:1)

Again, how is this the Trinity? Don't Trinitarians also believe Jesus is the Lord God? This does not say Father. Same with the others

• In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them. (Isaiah 63:9-10)

AGain, you are going ot have to show how this shows three different persons. It says HIS Spirit. Just like you and I, made in HIS image, God has a Spirit. His Spirit is not a distinct person from himself just as ours is not

Some of the verses above include all members of the triunity (Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, and Isaiah 61:1). Therefore, the Old Testament does reveal the Christian concept of the Godhead, with God being one God, consisting of three persons. How can God simultaneously exist as both singular and plural? It is a logical impossibility if God were restricted to the three dimensions of space and one dimension of time of our physical universe. However, the attributes of God, given by the Bible, provide a reasonable explanation of how this paradox can be resolved.

Not a single one of those verses mentions three distinct persons of the Trinity

5) The lack of any clear cut teaching of the Trinity in the NT
Ummmm I am doing that now…… why is there all this Father, Son – talk?

Even Arians would say there is Father Son talk. That does not show a Trinity a Triunity of Three Divine persons in One single essence/being

6) Jesus never acknowledged the concept of a Trinity when he had ample opportunity. ie: John 4:22-24 and Matt 12:28-29
Really? How so? There is so much distinctive scriptures – I think just the opposite

(Matthew 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

(Matthew 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Matthew 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Why, not enlighten Peter here…. “Well Pete, I am actually not the Son, but the manifested Father… I and my Father are the same guy…..

Uh, Mizpeh said the Trinity not the teaching that Jesus is the Son. Why didn't Jesus correct Peter and say "Im really God the Son, second person of the TRINITY. Even Unitarians and JWs believe Jesus is the Son of God. That's not unique to the Trinity. Come on, you are not doing what you were supposed to be doing

This is the best time in all of scripture for Jesus to refute all this SON stuff… yet he does not – please if this is such a serious doctrine of damnation…. Why not be forthwith and explain Peter’s error to Him

That's a strawman argument. Nobody is denying Jesus is the Son. Mizpehs question was about the NT teaching there is a Trinity not that Jesus is the Son

7) The creed recongnizing a Trinity took hundreds of years to formulate
Not really – it was always present – it took a few hundred years to organize and affirm… just a state of the times… it took 1900 years for oneness to formulate – they had no creeds until 1913 – so …………. Trinitarians have a MUCH richer heritage

Baloney. It was formuated, corrected and changed over the years. They debated and argued and theorized....read Justin Martyr, He was supposed to be a Trinitarian father but his theology is Arianistic

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Ferd

maybe im standing over here by myself. but my biggest problem with the doctrine of the trinity is that it causes a false sense of salvation.

I can live with the existance of PCI Apostolics because at the end of the day, they believe that the saved will be baptized and recive the HG.

trinitarians by and large are seperated from the Acts experience by their doctrine.

Good grief!