Since the heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I have to admit that I'm guilty when it comes to judgement of the hearts of others, even when my own is so black. I am so human that I don't tend to realize that while people fail time and time again, God never fails, and He keeps His promises.

I just wish I could get that settled in my mind, especially for myself.......

And I'm still trying to remember that I'm not the judge of others.

HO, it is hard to forget, but I have found that truly forgiving someone goes a long ways toward forgetting. We are human and constantly falling short of our perfect standing with God. Understanding the state and standing of the believer helps a person to be less judgmental and more compassionate in dealing with others. See the posts I made in The Be Perfect thread.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I've seen it before.

I've seen my kids struggle with forgiving their dad and I know it's a hindrance to them and sometimes it's so hard to know what to do.

I don't want them to give up on him, but he broke their trust and it will take a lot for him to rebuild that trust with them.

This is where it gets hard because he's not even claiming to live for God now, so the fruit he is bearing is pretty bare. But, does that mean we aren't suppose to forgive this type person too? As a Christian, shouldn't we even though they aren't?

Studying this has just brought more questions in my mind than answers. I really appreciate your post.

Sister, I know in my own life it took a move of God for me to forgive my dad. My parents divorced when I was only 8, and Dad was a very absent father. He never called, broke promises he would make to me about picking me up, and generally contributed nothing to my upbringing, other than pay child support, from the time I was 8 until I turned 13. I ended up guilting him into letting me move in with him, at that age, and it was a disaster. I carried so much resentment towards him that it was the very core of why I became such an angry person.

After I became apostolic, I had no choice but to turn to God for answers. I prayed and prayed, wanting to know what had happened and why my parents divorced. One day the Lord told me. They divorced because my Dad backslid. Eventually he got far enough away from Him that God could no longer provide that protection He gives to a praying comitted family that has a father leading the way. Once that protection was gone other forces took over and all that was left of the marriage was me, my sister, and a lot of hurt feelings.

Once I understood this my prayers changed from wanting to know why to praying for my Dad. I still have the image in my mind God placed there when I asked God what His will was for my Dad. It was so beautiful. I saw my Dad as an old man, at least in his 80s, standing in front of his garage. His hair was white and he had this smile on his face. He was so at peace. I could see the glory of God shining through him. He looked so holy. Even now, as I am typing these words, it brings tears to my eyes. How could I stay angry with my Dad after God showed me something like that?

If your children are living for God my suggestion would be for them to pray their way through their feelings. God knows the answers to the questions they have; questions they may not even know how to phrase. God can help them to forgive him. When it is all said and done it may be in God's plan to use their father's love for them as the means by which He leads him back home (referring to the Kingdom, not necessarily back to you personally).

[chosenbyone]

Renda,

This thread reminded me of one not too long ago regarding the journey of forgiving others. Many times we have been faced with such pain inflicted by others that we withdraw in order to protect what we fear most of losing...trust in others.

That road of forgiveness has been different for each traveler in life with all of the bumps, u-turns and dead ends, but we must be reminded that to stop and give up would only hinder us from reaching our destination. That destination of healing and forgiveness that seemed so elusive while we traveled mile after mile could only be reached when we allow Jesus to take control.

Letting go in many ways has meant losing control; however, it was only when we have learned to relinquish control that we allowed Christ to perform that which he had promised. He promised to direct our paths even though our journey of forgiveness may take longer than we had expected, we must be patient and trust his directions.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rico

The thread reminded me of someone I once knew. His name is Joe. Joe was the kind of person who went about conning any church willing to listen to whatever said story he could tell. He would invent a story, tell it to a church pastor, and then proceed to con the church out of as much money as he could. Joe pulled his scam on several of the apostolic churches in the area where I once lived.

As fate would have it, the Lord finally got a hold on Joe and he repented with tears and the whole nine yards. His repenting happened at the church I was attending, so this is where he started his true walk with the Lord. He came to me a few months after his conversion (we had become friends) upset because no one would believe he had really changed. His reputation as a church scammer had preceeded him and he just could not seem to overcome it. He said to me, "Rico, I don't understand why no one will believe that I have repented. The Lord knows my heart is pure and that I have truly repented."

I explained to him that people do not have the same abilities that God has. God can look right into our core and tell if we are sincere. People do not have that ability. It would take us more time to see who he had become on the inside. I told him he just needed to be patient, because eventually who he had become on the inside would be visible on the outside. It was only natural for people to be skeptical of him because, afterall, his target for scams had always been churches, and he had scammed some of the apostolic churches in the area and people knew about it. He understood what I was saying to him, but he was still very disappointed. He wanted everyone to see the new man, not the old man.

I said all that to say this: We need to be careful in our perceptions of the people around us. We may feel we are right on target with someone and not have the ability to see who a person really is. My suggestion would be for us to be cautiously optimistic with people, especially new converts. It may take months, or even years, for them to completely shed the after effects of who they were prior to conversion. We need to use wisdom and Godly discernment. This is one reason why we need mature saints in our churches who have exercised their spiritual senses.

Paul had some advice for him

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Not everyone will be convinced, but in doing good and giving back by works and other ways, he may convince some he truely has changed

Surprisingly, I have experienced this very attitude of judgment right here on AFF. There are some, ranging from lib to ultra con, who have made it clear that even though I have faithfully lived for God for over 8 years they would NEVER accept my ministry. Why? Not because I lived in sin for 18+ years but because of a mistake I made as a young minister 19 years of age.

Does this do disservice to the power of the blood of Jesus to fully redeem and restore?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Rico

They divorced because my Dad backslid.

Rico, this hit a spot and that is one thing they have struggled with the most - his inconsistencies. He was strict with them. When they were younger, one example is he told them anyone that cussed did so because they weren't smart enough to use the correct words they needed. He now cusses like a sailor in front of them.

His morals have gone down the tubes - he's even said the 10 Commandments are just guidelines.

I don't fear them becoming like him because in reality it has sickened them to see this about face change in him, however, it's so hard for them to forgive.

Thanks for your posts here - - I believe they are going to be fine, just one area in their lives I pray for complete healing for them.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by chosenbyone

Renda,

This thread reminded me of one not too long ago regarding the journey of forgiving others. Many times we have been faced with such pain inflicted by others that we withdraw in order to protect what we fear most of losing...trust in others.

That road of forgiveness has been different for each traveler in life with all of the bumps, u-turns and dead ends, but we must be reminded that to stop and give up would only hinder us from reaching our destination. That destination of healing and forgiveness that seemed so elusive while we traveled mile after mile could only be reached when we allow Jesus to take control.

Letting go in many ways has meant losing control; however, it was only when we have learned to relinquish control that we allowed Christ to perform that which he had promised. He promised to direct our paths even though our journey of forgiveness may take longer than we had expected, we must be patient and trust his directions.

Wow CBO!

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

HO, it is hard to forget, but I have found that truly forgiving someone goes a long ways toward forgetting. We are human and constantly falling short of our perfect standing with God. Understanding the state and standing of the believer helps a person to be less judgmental and more compassionate in dealing with others. See the posts I made in The Be Perfect thread.

And it has to be in that order, doesn't it? We can't just forget and say we've forgiven - that's the easy way.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I don't think we should be stupid, but the thread is about fellowshipping with unrepentant folks, right?

To answer your post above though, I tend not to trust too many people, especially in the church. Sorry, can't help it, and have had things happen to me personally by people in the church, so I'll well aware that while we are saved, we are still human also.

We can forgive, but God doesn't command us to forget. That's His job.

This thread is about whatever it needs to be about. Reading the scripture a few days ago, I believe it's about unrepentant folks, but then that's the whole scary part sometimes - how do we know? That was my original question.

Originally Posted by rgcraig

This thread is about whatever it needs to be about. Reading the scripture a few days ago, I believe it's about unrepentant folks, but then that's the whole scary part sometimes - how do we know? That was my original question.

Renda,

I don't mean to be catty, but is it our responsibility to know or to forgive?