The thread reminded me of someone I once knew. His name is Joe. Joe was the kind of person who went about conning any church willing to listen to whatever said story he could tell. He would invent a story, tell it to a church pastor, and then proceed to con the church out of as much money as he could. Joe pulled his scam on several of the apostolic churches in the area where I once lived.
As fate would have it, the Lord finally got a hold on Joe and he repented with tears and the whole nine yards. His repenting happened at the church I was attending, so this is where he started his true walk with the Lord. He came to me a few months after his conversion (we had become friends) upset because no one would believe he had really changed. His reputation as a church scammer had preceeded him and he just could not seem to overcome it. He said to me, "Rico, I don't understand why no one will believe that I have repented. The Lord knows my heart is pure and that I have truly repented."
I explained to him that people do not have the same abilities that God has. God can look right into our core and tell if we are sincere. People do not have that ability. It would take us more time to see who he had become on the inside. I told him he just needed to be patient, because eventually who he had become on the inside would be visible on the outside. It was only natural for people to be skeptical of him because, afterall, his target for scams had always been churches, and he had scammed some of the apostolic churches in the area and people knew about it. He understood what I was saying to him, but he was still very disappointed. He wanted everyone to see the new man, not the old man.
I said all that to say this: We need to be careful in our perceptions of the people around us. We may feel we are right on target with someone and not have the ability to see who a person really is. My suggestion would be for us to be cautiously optimistic with people, especially new converts. It may take months, or even years, for them to completely shed the after effects of who they were prior to conversion. We need to use wisdom and Godly discernment. This is one reason why we need mature saints in our churches who have exercised their spiritual senses.
The thread reminded me of someone I once knew. His name is Joe. Joe was the kind of person who went about conning any church willing to listen to whatever said story he could tell. He would invent a story, tell it to a church pastor, and then proceed to con the church out of as much money as he could. Joe pulled his scam on several of the apostolic churches in the area where I once lived.
As fate would have it, the Lord finally got a hold on Joe and he repented with tears and the whole nine yards. His repenting happened at the church I was attending, so this is where he started his true walk with the Lord. He came to me a few months after his conversion (we had become friends) upset because no one would believe he had really changed. His reputation as a church scammer had preceeded him and he just could not seem to overcome it. He said to me, "Rico, I don't understand why no one will believe that I have repented. The Lord knows my heart is pure and that I have truly repented."
I explained to him that people do not have the same abilities that God has. God can look right into our core and tell if we are sincere. People do not have that ability. It would take us more time to see who he had become on the inside. I told him he just needed to be patient, because eventually who he had become on the inside would be visible on the outside. It was only natural for people to be skeptical of him because, afterall, his target for scams had always been churches, and he had scammed some of the apostolic churches in the area and people knew about it. He understood what I was saying to him, but he was still very disappointed. He wanted everyone to see the new man, not the old man.
I said all that to say this: We need to be careful in our perceptions of the people around us. We may feel we are right on target with someone and not have the ability to see who a person really is. My suggestion would be for us to be cautiously optimistic with people, especially new converts. It may take months, or even years, for them to completely shed the after effects of who they were prior to conversion. We need to use wisdom and Godly discernment. This is one reason why we need mature saints in our churches who have exercised their spiritual senses.
Great post and example you gave there Rico.
People make their judgments and sometimes they're right. But sometimes they're wrong too, and if they're wrong so much harm can be done to a person in the meantime.
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
That is one of the best post you have ever written! This is what I'm talking about. It ties right in with what others have said about bearing the fruit.
Once someone has hurt you and there is mistrust, it does take time to rebuild that relationship and just because God has forgiven them doesn't mean as humans we can immediately do that too.
I almost feel that scripture while promoting unity and forgiveness also lays out some warnings for us to heed also.
Great post!
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Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
That is one of the best post you have ever written! This is what I'm talking about. It ties right in with what others have said about bearing the fruit.
Once someone has hurt you and there is mistrust, it does take time to rebuild that relationship and just because God has forgiven them doesn't mean as humans we can immediately do that too.
I almost feel that scripture while promoting unity and forgiveness also lays out some warnings for us to heed also.
When do we just forgive and forget? Just because someone is looked at as a Christian do we just accept that they are not struggling with any of those things listed and love them as Christ loves them, or not be partners with them?
Since their heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?
There are people who we pastor/ed that we know things about ..... some of the struggle, failure, even repeated failure ..... they get up, they fall down. They try and do well for a while and then they fail again. You counsel with them, encourage them, pray with and for them and see them do well only to see them fail yet again.
We've never turned our back on any of these people. We've never cut them off. We keep on loving them and encouraging them. When someone is down, when they've failed over and over again .... cutting them off is not going to do them any good probably.
How many times has Jesus had to forgive and pardon us? He never stops encouraging us. He never turns His back on us. Like the song says........ "He don't give up easy". And He doesn't.
God allows people to go their willful way. He allows them to exercise their will. But except for extreme situations He never turns His back.
What did He die for after all? He wants people to be saved and we should have the same heart for people that Christ does.
__________________ Smiles & Blessings.... ~Felicity Welsh~ (surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
I've seen my kids struggle with forgiving their dad and I know it's a hindrance to them and sometimes it's so hard to know what to do.
I don't want them to give up on him, but he broke their trust and it will take a lot for him to rebuild that trust with them.
This is where it gets hard because he's not even claiming to live for God now, so the fruit he is bearing is pretty bare. But, does that mean we aren't suppose to forgive this type person too? As a Christian, shouldn't we even though they aren't?
Studying this has just brought more questions in my mind than answers. I really appreciate your post.
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Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
God sees people differently than we do.Jonah saw the Ninhevites one way ,but God had compassion towards them.Jonah had a message but no burden.
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People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
Good point Scott! What we desire for the other person has a very strong influence on our willingness to participate in the will of God for that person's restoration or deliverance.
Good post HO! The question that this thread brings to my mind is this. Since we have all sinned and fallen short, and have failed one another, and needed forgiveness. And since God is the only one who truly knows a person's heart, and because I have certainly needed forgiveness in my own life, I tend to take the position, "Why would I even need to know if someone is sincere or not?" Our responsibility is to reflect the character of God, who forgives and forgets. Thus to remember and be always questioning is out of character with being a Christian.
I have to admit that I'm guilty when it comes to judgement of the hearts of others, even when my own is so black. I am so human that I don't tend to realize that while people fail time and time again, God never fails, and He keeps His promises.
I just wish I could get that settled in my mind, especially for myself.......
And I'm still trying to remember that I'm not the judge of others.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
I agree in most cases, however, what if there is someone that could be a threat or risk to others, do we just forgive and forget and turn our heads to what could take place?
I don't think we should be stupid, but the thread is about fellowshipping with unrepentant folks, right?
To answer your post above though, I tend not to trust too many people, especially in the church. Sorry, can't help it, and have had things happen to me personally by people in the church, so I'll well aware that while we are saved, we are still human also.
We can forgive, but God doesn't command us to forget. That's His job.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
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