Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I could be misunderstanding him, but I don't think he believes God allows anyone to exercise any of His authority.

Maybe you are right. I have a hard time decifering what he says most of the time.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Rico

As I said earlier, if I had my way I would not be going through this at all, so this has nothing to do with doing things my way. This is about whether or not I am going to let circumstances decide for me whether or not I will obey God and take His Word to where He wants me to take it.

More than anything else I am confident God can reveal the motive of your own heart in such matters if you carefully and consistently seek him for such.

If your heart does not condemn you, your in a really good spot with your loving and faithful God.

If visions of men's faces steal your peace with fingers wagging and saying "watch out, watch out, watch out" just watch out...." you probably have too much man stuff swirling in your spirit to go forward.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

There are people who call me pastor and attend our church who do not live in compliance with some of the things that I teach.

I love them. I pray for them. I visit them when they are sick. I'll dedicate their babies, marry their kids, and bury their dead. As long as they don't try to foment division and convince others to agree with them rather than their pastor, they are welcome.

But they cannot be in any kind of leadership.

I am not at all nonplussed just because someone disagrees with me, as long as their spirit is right and they don't try and bring disunity in the church.

Why should I run them off? If they keep hanging around, I am apt to convince them.

The bolded part is the only thing that doesn't sit well with me. Why would you let personal differences stand in the way of someone fulfilling their call? I mean, I know the "why" of your reasoning-pastors like a united front line and worry that anyone who doesn't line up with what they believe will ultimately end up being trouble. However, ultimately, the church is God's, and He knows how to deal with people who are trouble makers.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Old Paths

When I pastored many moons ago, there was this one particular lady that didn't always agree me, at times we disagreeed very strongly, but I let her lead the choir, sing and play the piano.
























MY WIFE!

[Rico]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Casting a vision.
What does that mean in general and REALLY what does that mean in the context of understanding the operation of authority.

If Rico is in setting where no one else presently sees a field of souls in the prisons, does he have a vision that is completely void of any rebellion to any authority in the Kingdom of God? If a person has a vision for a work in the Kingdom of God that is not shared by a Pastor, teacher, Elder or Bishop, is that person in harms way? I think most would probably say…NO...with a truckload of caveats.

But, if a pastor or teacher or elder or bishop ‘casts a vision’ what does that pastor or teacher or elder or bishop expect of those people who are involved with his life? I think the general expectation by such a person is that these folks will labor in the yoke WITH HIM to see his vision come to pass.

Is that the way God set things up? Do I have a VISION if I am laboring to see someone else’s vision come to pass. Shouldn’t vision involve ME SEEING something for myself?

I submit that if I enjoin myself to somebody else’s vision, I have not seen anything and I am following a man’s vision and over time will become a disciple of the person whose vision I am co-laboring with to see come to pass.

Just a few basics that most already know.
1. CASTING a vision is not witnessed or prompted in scripture.
2. Where NO vision the people perish, but this negative is contrasted with…. KEEPING the law makes one happy. Is this the basis for people who see themselves as RULERs casting a vision?
3. Working out my own salvation with fear and trembling can not be linked or predicated upon a pastor having a VISION. That would require God to be respecter of persons.

See this is why it all rolls up to this establishing premise that we are saved by OBEYING the guy God put over us as our RULER. I’d guess most folks who presently believe they have the RULE pertaining to other members of the Body of Christ do not actually want this responsibility. But since they probably believe this to be their role, a vision of what kind of things should be going on is an important part. The good faith bargain is that if we do what we are told, we will be welcomed by God into heaven because we were obedient to do what the guy with the vision said we should do toward the fulfillment of his vision. That whole deal scares me a whole lot.

Will your pastor’s vision save you if you have no vision of your own?
If you need a vision, how does your vision get reconciled when your RULER does not share the vision?
Is authority in operation when a vision is cast?
Do we see a scriptural admonition to cast visions for other folks?

Interesting stuff that gets so little consideration in our thoughts because these phrases become familiar clichés.

Um, what is so wrong about becoming a part of your pastor's vision? Didn't Paul say to follow him as he followed Christ? I mean, I don't want to do this totally by myself. I am hoping to find others who are willing to share this ministry with me.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by tbpew

More than anything else I am confident God can reveal the motive of your own heart in such matters if you carefully and consistently seek him for such.

If your heart does not condemn you, your in a really good spot with your loving and faithful God.

If visions of men's faces steal your peace with fingers wagging and saying "watch out, watch out, watch out" just watch out...." you probably have too much man stuff swirling in your spirit to go forward.

Right. I am wrestling with everything I have been taught about the structure of ministry.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I could be misunderstanding him, but I don't think he believes God allows anyone to exercise any of His authority.

Maybe such a statement is so great, evoking sweeping unlimited possibilites global, encompassing of all categories so as to be rendered a statement that says NOTHING.

I have labored with many words. Rico has never been overly thrilled about my word structures, but that is OK and I have no problem with his reviews.

The Kingdom of God is established as a SINGLE BODY; many members one head. Rulers in the body of Christ are a regrettable re-emergence of intermediaries. If they purport to get instruction from the head, and the individual member should follow them without receiving the same, they are establishing themselves as mediator. If that is the case, the veil was not rent for anyone other than the RULERS.

That is not hyperbole or drama, its a perfectly reasonable assertion.

I asked GL to consider listing out the series of things that go on in the life of a member of the Body of Christ and then consider is it in the REALM of the Spirit or the REALM of a temporal need. In temporal matters we have a need for order, overseers, and servants to provide "headship" for matters that serve peace and order.

Is a pastor a denominated 'head' between Christ and a member within the body of Christ that they have the RULER over?

Body's do not have denominated or delegated authority from the head to sub-heads.

God
Christ
Man
Wife

The scripture is missing the RULER's position. How can such an oversight have occurred unless there are NO RULER's over other member's of God own body?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Rico

Um, what is so wrong about becoming a part of your pastor's vision? Didn't Paul say to follow him as he followed Christ? I mean, I don't want to do this totally by myself. I am hoping to find others who are willing to share this ministry with me.

Rico, the scripture you quoted obligates you to determine that your version of "Paul" is following Christ.

Such an obligation is complete foolishness if your relationship to the one you are following is a God-appointed RULER that you are to OBEY.

Folks are wanting to have it both ways, but the scripture is not providing you an out for being "out to lunch"....while being obedient to what you have been told by some man in your life.

AS example...
The error would be that if God has not called you or your wife to teach in a church school but your present RULER (the one with presumed authority OVER your life in Christ) has a vision for Church school that will evangelize school age children, what will happen?

Will you watch your wife go volunteer in the school while your own children go to the daycare?
Will you speak against the RULER's vision as having NO witness in your own life and be reviewed for possible sowing of discord and disunity with the RULER's vision?
Will you OBEY and live out your days in that role because you were told that the most important thing to do is OBEY those who are YOUR RULERS?
Hey, what if you feel the God is leading your home to be involved with Home Instruction....ARE YOU REBELLOUS by having a vision separate from your RULER's?

Likely you may wander from one guy's vision to another guy's vision hoping to find a match when all along you had your own vision.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Maybe such a statement is so great, evoking sweeping unlimited possibilites global, encompassing of all categories so as to be rendered a statement that says NOTHING.

I have labored with many words. Rico has never been overly thrilled about my word structures, but that is OK and I have no problem with his reviews.

The Kingdom of God is established as a SINGLE BODY; many members one head. Rulers in the body of Christ are a regrettable re-emergence of intermediaries. If they purport to get instruction from the head, and the individual member should follow them without receiving the same, they are establishing themselves as mediator. If that is the case, the veil was not rent for anyone other than the RULERS.

That is not hyperbole or drama, its a perfectly reasonable assertion.

I asked GL to consider listing out the series of things that go on in the life of a member of the Body of Christ and then consider is it in the REALM of the Spirit or the REALM of a temporal need. In temporal matters we have a need for order, overseers, and servants to provide "headship" for matters that serve peace and order.

Is a pastor a denominated 'head' between Christ and a member within the body of Christ that they have the RULER over?

Body's do not have denominated or delegated authority from the head to sub-heads.

God
Christ
Man
Wife

The scripture is missing the RULER's position. How can such an oversight have occurred unless there are NO RULER's over other member's of God own body?

Uhhh, excuse me for interupting my friend. I have read most of everything on this thread and maybe I'm just not bright enough to quite understand you. I have come to my own conclusions concerning everything that you have posted, but you still cannot effectively explain away what coonskinner or "gl" have posted earlier. Your educated and well thought out grammar is not going to negate pastoral authority. It is the responsability of the man of God to deliver his word with authority. The job of a pastor is to guide and lead a flock. It does you no good to use fancy smancy speech to argue against God given authority. I hope you well.

[Sister Alvear]

I hope I am not speaking out of turn but I do know Rico and know he has been hurt...deeply hurt ...sometimes it takes a time to get over hurts.
Just onight something happend: We left around 3 our time to get to a 4 o´clock baby shower then stayed as we were having a 7 PM service in the same village. We had an awesome service and got in around 10 or so our time. When we opened the gate (remote control) here were 3 men standing in our driveway. It was dark and the first thing Brother Alvear did was say Oh no! Put the car in reverse and I realized it was some new young boys and our son! We thought it was robbers as we have had so many experiences...It was just some boys that had been practicing the guitar...but we have had so many scares that was Brother Alvear´s first reaction...

Kinda like Rico...he has had bad experiences and it makes it hard for him to trust.

In trusting we must realize we are all human. I love my pastor he is a very wise man. I know today if certain people would have been my pastor thousands of souls that have been brought to light might still be in darkness.
So when you seek a pastor seek for a wise man. That does not mean you will see eye to eye on every subject but it does mean if you sit under him he will be your guide.