Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

The word power there is the Greek word that means authority, not dunamis.

The only authority that exists really is God's authority.

A man can only operate under the authority of God as God allows.

Ok. I think this is what tbpew has been saying all along.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Rico

Ok. I think this is what tbpew has been saying all along.

I could be misunderstanding him, but I don't think he believes God allows anyone to exercise any of His authority.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Bro CS, If I am holding you in any way in this discussion, please know I release you. The part I bolded above would seem to make this engagement so painful as to be at risk for more harm than good.

Thanks for sharing your views.

Any additional comments I may make in this discussion will be purposely constructed to be general and not needing a reply from anyone who is struggling with boredom.

If you sit in Moses' seat for a local assembly, I can better understand your comments. I believe that Moses' was the type and shadow fullfilled with Jesus. If you sit in Jesus' seat for the local assembly, I am glad I am not you.oloroid

Nobody is forcing me, Brother.

I was just stating that I have wearied somewhat of the endless discussions of individual standards.

Your approach seems to be a tad different, which is why I have participated.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I am not unwilling to discuss it in the context of applications; it seemed to me that you were insisting that there was NO application of what we would call pastoral authority sanctioned by the Scripture.

Discussing the various applications and boundaries of pastoral authority have consumed more bandwidth than any other thing on these forums. I have discussed it until I am bored with it. That is basically at the crux of all the Standards threads. They've been done to death.

As the pastor of our church, there are some things I take the oversight of.

I determine who preaches in our pulpit.

I cast vision for the local assembly, and oversee the execution of that vision.

I determine, through the guidance of Scripture and the Spirit, the expectations we have for our leadership within the Body.

I preach the Gospel and teach the Word regularly, and endeavor to teach principles that equip the Body for maturity, ministry, and spiritual growth.

Because they trust me, saints ask me for advice and counsel on various matters when they feel the need. I do my best to give them wise counsel.

Any level of submission they give me is entirely voluntary, as I cannot force anyone to do anything, and have no desire to.

Thank you for sharing this, Brother. You have always struck me as being a bit more balanced than what I have experienced from the very conservative pastors I have known. What do you do when someone disagrees with you on something you teach or preach?

[Rico]

BTW, this is not really what I had in mind when I started this thread, but I am enjoying the conversation none the less.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Rico

Thank you for sharing this, Brother. You have always struck me as being a bit more balanced than what I have experienced from the very conservative pastors I have known. What do you do when someone disagrees with you on something you teach or preach?

There are people who call me pastor and attend our church who do not live in compliance with some of the things that I teach.

I love them. I pray for them. I visit them when they are sick. I'll dedicate their babies, marry their kids, and bury their dead. As long as they don't try to foment division and convince others to agree with them rather than their pastor, they are welcome.

But they cannot be in any kind of leadership.

I am not at all nonplussed just because someone disagrees with me, as long as their spirit is right and they don't try and bring disunity in the church.

Why should I run them off? If they keep hanging around, I am apt to convince them.

[Old Paths]

When I pastored many moons ago, there was this one particular lady that didn't always agree me, at times we disagreeed very strongly, but I let her lead the choir, sing and play the piano.
























MY WIFE!

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

John the Baptist was a unique man with a ministry that was prophesied hundreds of years before he was born. He was never intended to be the normative example of New Testament ministry.

As for Paul, he was also an exception in some ways. Because of his past, he was not well accepted by the Jerusalem church.

It is important to note that he did return to Jerusalem and check himself with Peter and John.

He demonstrated his cooperation with and even submission to the counsel of the elders and apostles at Jerusalem.

Rico, there are definitely exceptions to what would be considered the conventional path to ministry, but there are no exceptions to working harmoniously with the Body of Christ. There are no Lone Rangers for Jesus.

Authority only comes through submission. We all need to be accountable to someone.We all need a pastor. I need one, and have one.

Exceptions are exceptions because of something unique in the purpose of God. God does not make exceptions because someone just doesn't want to be bothered with being accountable to anyone. And please don't think I am accusing you of that. I don't think that is the case. I am just speaking in general terms.

Well, this is the thing, Brother. There is a decent church here in town I don't mind sharing some worship with. If I felt that God was telling me that this is the place He has in mind for me, then I would go ahead and "become a member" there. However, when I pray about it, I'm not getting a green light from the Lord. I'm not getting a red light either, for that matter. It's almost as if He is leaving that decision up to me. That is one side of where I am.

The other side is that I can't get prison ministry out of my mind. I read the Bible, come to a scripture that would be a good jumping off point in a message, and there it is-that same "thing" that has happened to me anytime God lets me know that His intention for me is for me to share His word with men who are locked up. That last couple of months it's gotten louder and louder, if that makes any sense to you. I feel ready to answer this call again, but I know that I don't have a home church.

I know how things work, and I know what some people are going to think and say if I move forward. I also know that talk is cheap. Results speak louder than people's opinions or our traditions and I can't help but wonder what is more important to God; someone who is in a church but does nothing to further the Kingdom, or someone who isn't into the whole church membership thing but is in local jails winning the lost.

Would it make a difference to say that I am paying my tithes to an established apostolic ministry, and the good folks who run this ministry said I can consider them my internet pastors and can come to them for advice if I need it?

[tbpew]

Casting a vision.
What does that mean in general and REALLY what does that mean in the context of understanding the operation of authority.

If Rico is in setting where no one else presently sees a field of souls in the prisons, does he have a vision that is completely void of any rebellion to any authority in the Kingdom of God? If a person has a vision for a work in the Kingdom of God that is not shared by a Pastor, teacher, Elder or Bishop, is that person in harms way? I think most would probably say…NO...with a truckload of caveats.

But, if a pastor or teacher or elder or bishop ‘casts a vision’ what does that pastor or teacher or elder or bishop expect of those people who are involved with his life? I think the general expectation by such a person is that these folks will labor in the yoke WITH HIM to see his vision come to pass.

Is that the way God set things up? Do I have a VISION if I am laboring to see someone else’s vision come to pass. Shouldn’t vision involve ME SEEING something for myself?

I submit that if I enjoin myself to somebody else’s vision, I have not seen anything and I am following a man’s vision and over time will become a disciple of the person whose vision I am co-laboring with to see come to pass.

Just a few basics that most already know.
1. CASTING a vision is not witnessed or prompted in scripture.
2. Where NO vision the people perish, but this negative is contrasted with…. KEEPING the law makes one happy. Is this the basis for people who see themselves as RULERs casting a vision?
3. Working out my own salvation with fear and trembling can not be linked or predicated upon a pastor having a VISION. That would require God to be respecter of persons.

See this is why it all rolls up to this establishing premise that we are saved by OBEYING the guy God put over us as our RULER. I’d guess most folks who presently believe they have the RULE pertaining to other members of the Body of Christ do not actually want this responsibility. But since they probably believe this to be their role, a vision of what kind of things should be going on is an important part. The good faith bargain is that if we do what we are told, we will be welcomed by God into heaven because we were obedient to do what the guy with the vision said we should do toward the fulfillment of his vision. That whole deal scares me a whole lot.

Will your pastor’s vision save you if you have no vision of your own?
If you need a vision, how does your vision get reconciled when your RULER does not share the vision?
Is authority in operation when a vision is cast?
Do we see a scriptural admonition to cast visions for other folks?

Interesting stuff that gets so little consideration in our thoughts because these phrases become familiar clichés.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Old Paths

Do it your way, if it works fine, but if doesn't.....

As I said earlier, if I had my way I would not be going through this at all, so this has nothing to do with doing things my way. This is about whether or not I am going to let circumstances decide for me whether or not I will obey God and take His Word to where He wants me to take it.