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  #201  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:34 PM
Sarge
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Originally Posted by stmatthew View Post
On a side note, I wonder if the Spiritual Abuse site could be liable for a law suit from a disgruntled poster there for practicing without a license. I have not been there and do not know what they do there. Just asking a general question here.
Hardly, Matthew. We are simply a support group. We never claim professional counseling or anything of that nature, so there's no practicing anything w/o a license. We have told people with very serious issues to see a professional. Kind of an interesting question seeing how these boards have been threatened with lawsuits.

The rest is not a response to your post.

It would have been nice to see the issue discussed w/o people starting to bite at each other who differed in view. It's great how on my board we can discuss matters and have a group of people who have varying beliefs and none of them feel a need to belittle or attack other members, even when they greatly differ in beliefs. There are things that go on here that never would be tolerated on our support group board. And as I shared before, there has been more bashing and bad-mouthing of the UPC and people running wild with UPC "news" here than ever would occur on my board.

There are also ones who speak loudly who act like they know what happens on the site when in fact they have read very little of it and were never a part of the support group. They claim they "know" what we do, when in fact they cannot.

For the record, I didn't leave "truth" because of anything that happened in my former church. When I first left the UPC, and for some time thereafter, I was very much yet apostolic, but had changed my views in the area of standards.
My exit away from main apostolic teachings came over quite a bit of time- years- and when I started the web site, I was yet looking into some things. I didn't stomp out of my former church and chuck everything aside out of some type of bitterness due to being wronged. I made my doctrinal changes over much time and after study of the Bible.

Next, I have always recognized that ministers have also been abused. And some DO share about it. This abuse is just as wrong as the other. But trying to throw that out in an attempt to diminish the fact that there is abuse that happens to people in churches will never accomplish what you want.

Saying that no one should ever publicly share about wrongdoings and attempting to make it appear biblical that we cannot or should not, please remember that writers of the Bible shared things that people from across the world have read and will continue to read for years. Not only did their friends and peers read about them, but also those of us who were never there and don't know the people involved....and it's there for all to read, hundreds and hundreds of years after the events.

If you have been hurt and have been able to never share about it, that is fine. But please don't try to make this a rule for everyone. As another mentioned, some don't share and it eats them up inside and causes much damage.

Again, we do not encourage people to "wallow in their hurts." We do not encourage bitterness. We strongly teach against it. We do not encourage revenge against those who have caused harm. We don't encourage people going on campaigns against their former church. We don't send our members to places like AFF to cause trouble. We are against this type of thing. But some people who don't like the site will continue to share their untrue characterizations. Feel free to dislike the site. Feel free to hate it. That is expected and I even address this on the site. But stop portraying us as fueling bitterness or hatred or similar things. We do not. We tell members they must forgive- and some through the years have gotten very angry at me for it- and they must not allow bitterness to remain in their heart. We won't even allow any members to attempt to push another member to make changes in the standards area.

I probably won't post much more on this due to the direction the thread has gone. Anyone is free to contact me privately. My contact into is posted on my web site.
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  #202  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:39 PM
augustianian augustianian is offline
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Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne View Post
Standards alone never abused anyone. We all need standards in our lives.

But I don't agree that some are necessary for salvation as they are preached. But I will say that while standards won't get you to heaven, lack of standards will keep you out of heaven.
That is why standards are abusive. Who decides what standards will keep you out of heaven??
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  #203  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:43 PM
JaneEyre JaneEyre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
Hardly, Matthew. We are simply a support group. We never claim professional counseling or anything of that nature, so there's no practicing anything w/o a license. We have told people with very serious issues to see a professional. Kind of an interesting question seeing how these boards have been threatened with lawsuits.

The rest is not a response to your post.

It would have been nice to see the issue discussed w/o people starting to bite at each other who differed in view. It's great how on my board we can discuss matters and have a group of people who have varying beliefs and none of them feel a need to belittle or attack other members, even when they greatly differ in beliefs. There are things that go on here that never would be tolerated on our support group board. And as I shared before, there has been more bashing and bad-mouthing of the UPC and people running wild with UPC "news" here than ever would occur on my board.

There are also ones who speak loudly who act like they know what happens on the site when in fact they have read very little of it and were never a part of the support group. They claim they "know" what we do, when in fact they cannot.

For the record, I didn't leave "truth" because of anything that happened in my former church. When I first left the UPC, and for some time thereafter, I was very much yet apostolic, but had changed my views in the area of standards.
My exit away from main apostolic teachings came over quite a bit of time- years- and when I started the web site, I was yet looking into some things. I didn't stomp out of my former church and chuck everything aside out of some type of bitterness due to being wronged. I made my doctrinal changes over much time and after study of the Bible.

Next, I have always recognized that ministers have also been abused. And some DO share about it. This abuse is just as wrong as the other. But trying to throw that out in an attempt to diminish the fact that there is abuse that happens to people in churches will never accomplish what you want.

Saying that no one should ever publicly share about wrongdoings and attempting to make it appear biblical that we cannot or should not, please remember that writers of the Bible shared things that people from across the world have read and will continue to read for years. Not only did their friends and peers read about them, but also those of us who were never there and don't know the people involved....and it's there for all to read, hundreds and hundreds of years after the events.

If you have been hurt and have been able to never share about it, that is fine. But please don't try to make this a rule for everyone. As another mentioned, some don't share and it eats them up inside and causes much damage.

Again, we do not encourage people to "wallow in their hurts." We do not encourage bitterness. We strongly teach against it. We do not encourage revenge against those who have caused harm. We don't encourage people going on campaigns against their former church. We don't send our members to places like AFF to cause trouble. We are against this type of thing. But some people who don't like the site will continue to share their untrue characterizations. Feel free to dislike the site. Feel free to hate it. That is expected and I even address this on the site. But stop portraying us as fueling bitterness or hatred or similar things. We do not. We tell members they must forgive- and some through the years have gotten very angry at me for it- and they must not allow bitterness to remain in their heart. We won't even allow any members to attempt to push another member to make changes in the standards area.

I probably won't post much more on this due to the direction the thread has gone. Anyone is free to contact me privately. My contact into is posted on my web site.

Great post, Sarge. I haven't left the standards, but I have permanently left the UPCI to attend an independent church. Going to your site has helped me to affirm that others have been hurt and others have moved on and healed. As has been said many times, abuse can happen in any denomination. Sometimes the pain still seems almost unbearable because it was so uncalled for and unwarranted.
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  #204  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:47 PM
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stmatthew stmatthew is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
Hardly, Matthew. We are simply a support group. We never claim professional counseling or anything of that nature, so there's no practicing anything w/o a license. We have told people with very serious issues to see a professional. Kind of an interesting question seeing how these boards have been threatened with lawsuits.
As I stated, I did not know what was there, so i was more just thinking out loud. And you are right. There is always gonna be someone to threaten even if they have no case.

Thanks for responding.
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  #205  
Old 01-14-2008, 07:54 PM
Sarge
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You are welcome, Matt.
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  #206  
Old 01-14-2008, 08:11 PM
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Harmony Harmony is offline
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Sarge,

Thank you for your post. I wish I could put my thoughts down as well as you.
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  #207  
Old 01-14-2008, 09:10 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stmatthew View Post
Having worked with those that were sexually abused in the past, one of the first things necessary is to get the person out of the victim roll. In doing so, I do not think we downplayed their trauma, but we had to encourage them to move on from it. There is no victory as long as one continually talks about their defeat. Not saying there should not be a time of getting it out, but only with the intent purpose of moving on.


On a side note, I wonder if the Spiritual Abuse site could be liable for a law suit from a disgruntled poster there for practicing without a license. I have not been there and do not know what they do there. Just asking a general question here.
Sarge already answered about her site and I have nothing much to add. I've been through her site and I was briefly posting on the closed forum. The discussion is issue focused and the Bible is the guide.

As Sarge points out, her own doctrinal journey has led her to a slightly different understanding of salvation than she had before. To use the sloppy AFF nomenclature, she's more "PCI" than the "PAJC" position that she previously held. Again, those terms are thrown around and intended to be understood in their broadest generalizations. But I consider Sarge a "sister in Christ" and even some of my own more "ultra-con" relatives have read through her site and gave positive feed back.

St. Matt, you are obviously correct when you describe your experiences working with people who have suffered from terrible abuse (at least "obviously" to me). The biggest step toward healing is to not "downplay" the abuse. But to acknowledge it, and then provide tools to help the person to heal and move forward.

I think we can not only stop a lot of the negative commentary that follow such instances, but also genuinely help the hurting by simply acknowledging and not downplaying the hurt. Usually a simple acknowwledgement from someone, somewhere is all an angry and embittered soul is looking for. It's like they can't really believe what has happened and until they get "confirmation" they can't or won't move on.

Just tell people, "Wow, that must have been a really painful experience..." Let the tears flow and then start to equip the sufferer to heal.
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  #208  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:43 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover View Post
I have not read this thread, but I was a guest on the Spiritual Abuse forum for a month. Neither Lois, myself, nor the others were anything less than polite - absolutely no UPC bashing on the thread I could read.
That's because she didn't give you the special keys to the UPC bashing part of her forum!!!
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  #209  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:45 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by Harmony View Post
It is no different than this forum. People post experiences, questions, encouragement..etc. There is nobody on there claiming to be a phsycologist. There is nobody telling anyone what to do, or giving treatment plans.

In all actuallity this forum has WAY more UPCI bashing then her forum ever has.
This post is truth all the way around.
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  #210  
Old 01-14-2008, 10:46 PM
HeavenlyOne HeavenlyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by jrLA View Post
I have seen this Abuse Forum, makes me sick to my stomach! Very nausiating!
Tell me, what do you find on it that you don't find here?
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