If Physical Death is Final?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I'll just put it this way:
If God says it's just, then it's just.... whether I comprehend it or not.

God gave you a mind and a sense of what is just for a reason. When traditional interpretations and the good sense that God gave us collide...which should win out? I'm sorry, if something claiming to be God says it's just to do something terrible he's wrong and clearly not God. God is just, and we made in his image, hunger and thirst for that righteousness and justice. The only real competition against our built in sense of justice is tradition and the fear of religious authorities.

Here's a very interesting concept...God is just...and does what is just...always. He doesn't do injustice and then tell us it's just because He's God and we're not. That makes God sound like my alcoholic father who felt he could beat my mother and it was right because he was the, "man of the house".

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Antipas

God gave you a mind and a sense of what is just for a reason. When traditional interpretations and the good sense that God gave us collide...which should win out? I'm sorry, if something claiming to be God says it's just to do something terrible he's wrong and clearly not God. God is just, and we made in his image, hunger and thirst for that righteousness and justice. The only real competition against our built in sense of justice is tradition and the fear of religious authorities.

Here's a very interesting concept...God is just...and does what is just...always. He doesn't do injustice and then tell us it's just because He's God and we're not. That makes God sound like my alcoholic father who felt he could beat my mother and it was right because he was the, "man of the house".

Very instructive, Antipas!

I am convinced that the Holy Spirit will lead us all away from traditional bondage and fear if we can pursue God with an open heart and mind. Religious tradition is not sacred in itself, there is plenty of examples of religion being completely off track. Just as Calvin and Augustine were involved in murder out of religious zeal. If it is out of character for God, you can bank it, it is wrong no matter who supports it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I'll just put it this way:
If God says it's just, then it's just.... whether I comprehend it or not.

Exactly.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

So tormenting a young woman's soul forever in pure agony and torturous flame, simply because she was born Muslim or Hindu and never even heard of the Gospel is just?

You missed my entire point.

God knows the thoughts and minds of everyone. Not only that, but His very mind, Itself, is so far beyond our own that I think we are fools in thinking we can ascertain his justice.

One thing I have noticed about proponents of the no-one-lost argument is that they assume what they think God should or should not do, without any precedent from the Word. It's just, "Well, I cannot see God doing otherwise." No plain teaching exists anywhere in the Bible for their conclusions, but it is just, "MY God would not do that."

Prax said it best. It's all based upon an emotional concept of who they think God is or is not, and not based upon scriptural teaching.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Antipas

God gave you a mind and a sense of what is just for a reason. When traditional interpretations and the good sense that God gave us collide...which should win out? I'm sorry, if something claiming to be God says it's just to do something terrible he's wrong and clearly not God. God is just, and we made in his image, hunger and thirst for that righteousness and justice. The only real competition against our built in sense of justice is tradition and the fear of religious authorities.

Here's a very interesting concept...God is just...and does what is just...always. He doesn't do injustice and then tell us it's just because He's God and we're not. That makes God sound like my alcoholic father who felt he could beat my mother and it was right because he was the, "man of the house".

aaah..."the good sense God gave us'... as in "human reasoning". Yes, of course God gave us the ability to reason, but my point is that God's ways will often defy human reasoning. <---Any believer who refuses to accept that is a believer who may well be on a slippery slope towards abandoning his faith.

When there's a contrast between the clear word of scripture vs. my human reasoning, I'll take the clear word of scripture any day. Some seem to think that if they cant "figure it out" in their own minds they can just mold the words and interpretation of scripture to fit into a concept they feel more comfortable with.

But that same kind of mindset has led to all kinds of devilish doctrinal errors. For example, I've seen a similar line of reasoning used to justify Pro-Gay Theology. (as in: "Being gay is not a sin, because I was born that way... I know what the Bible says, and it seems kinda clear, but regardless... being gay can't be a sin, because this is how God made me. I don't care what the "traditional interpretations" of scripture say. God's nature is love, and he doesn't make junk, or any mistakes. So I'll just ignore the "traditional interpretations" out there and be proudly gay, based on what I know to the the loving, accepting nature of God. ")

Universal Reconciliation theology...and Pro-Gay Theology...
Two different doctrines, but the mindset and logic people sometimes use to justify each one are very similar. But...


“There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death.” Proverbs 16:25

[berkeley]

I think you all are confizzled.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Here's a very interesting concept...God is just...and does what is just...always. He doesn't do injustice and then tell us it's just because He's God and we're not. That makes God sound like my alcoholic father who felt he could beat my mother and it was right because he was the, "man of the house".

Apples to oranges comparisons [like comparing your alcoholic father's actions to God's actions] are invalid comparisons to begin with, and will always fall short. Anyway...

Originally Posted by Antipas

God gave you a mind and a sense of what is just for a reason. When traditional interpretations and the good sense that God gave us collide...which should win out? I'm sorry, if something claiming to be God says it's just to do something terrible he's wrong and clearly not God. God is just, and we made in his image, hunger and thirst for that righteousness and justice. The only real competition against our built in sense of justice is tradition and the fear of religious authorities.

Here's a very interesting concept...God is just...and does what is just...always. He doesn't do injustice and then tell us it's just because He's God and we're not. That makes God sound like my alcoholic father who felt he could beat my mother and it was right because he was the, "man of the house".

So essentially you're saying essentially if "God" does something terrible he's not God.

Well, how do you define "terrible"? And who gets to define what's "terrible"? You and I... or God?

Are God's actions limited to what you, or any man, consider to be "just" ?

When God commanded the Israelites in the Old Testament to kill the Caananites, even the innocent babies... do you consider that terrible? Do you now claim that that was "clearly not God" (because you don't see how a loving God would kill sweet little babies) even though God's word plainly tells us He did order those killings? Many unbelievers, atheists, agnostics, etc have made reference to such scriptures as being evidence that either 1... God is not good or 2... God must be a myth because a loving God would never do such a thing.

Their refusal to accept God's word at face value has caused them to reject faith, and reject God's word... to their own destruction. To me,that's sad. But even sadder still is when I see former Christians who have also followed down that same destructive path.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You missed my entire point.

God knows the thoughts and minds of everyone. Not only that, but His very mind, Itself, is so far beyond our own that I think we are fools in thinking we can ascertain his justice.

One thing I have noticed about proponents of the no-one-lost argument is that they assume what they think God should or should not do, without any precedent from the Word. It's just, "Well, I cannot see God doing otherwise." No plain teaching exists anywhere in the Bible for their conclusions, but it is just, "MY God would not do that."

Prax said it best. It's all based upon an emotional concept of who they think God is or is not, and not based upon scriptural teaching.

There are a number of Scriptures that offer a Universal Reconciliation interpretation of Scripture. For example...

I Corinthians 15:22.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:18.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Luke 2:10.
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

John 12:32.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Isaiah 45: 23.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Philippians 2: 10-11.
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I Timothy 2: 1-6.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Genesis 28: 14.
And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Psalm 22:27.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

Ephesians 1: 9-11.
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Colossians 1: 16 and 20.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Revelation 21:5.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Acts 3: 20 and 21
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

II Corinthians 5: 17-19.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

John 1:29.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

I John 2:2.
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:47.
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world

John 4:42.
Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

I John 4:14.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

I Corinthians 15: 22 and 26.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Romans 11:26.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ephesians 2:7.
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 8: 11-12.
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Titus 2:11.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I Corinthians 4:5.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Revelation 15:4.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

II Corinthians 5: 15-17.
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 11:32 and 36.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

Ephesians 4:10.
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Revelation 21: 4-5.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The point is that our UR brothers and sisters have an interpretation based on various Scriptures...even if we disagree. I can't call it a doctrine of devils...it's just a different interpretation, as with the various interpretations of the Rapture. No man knows...and no man can be certain until we are on the other side. I don't see any value in dividing the body over the fact that some brethren believe that God is actually capable of reconciling the creation he sent the Savior to save, even if I personally disagree with them or have concerns with the notion.

I'd also like to present a point in relation to the terms "saved" and "lost". Christ came to save men from God's judgment and wrath. Those who accept and obey the Gospel are saved from that judgment, even if it is of a temporary nature. Those who don't are truly lost in that their lives are a complete waste, they are lost to God's forgiveness and must endure punishment, and they will have no reward upon reconciliation....all according to UR of course. The Bible says that we will rule and reign with Christ in eternity...perhaps we rule and reign over those who didn't accept the Gospel as they are reconciled to their creator.

***Just a few thoughts from one pondering the subject of UR.***

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Apples to oranges comparisons [like comparing your alcoholic father's actions to God's actions] are invalid comparisons to begin with, and will always fall short. Anyway...



So essentially you're saying essentially if "God" does something terrible he's not God.

Well, how do you define "terrible"? And who gets to define what's "terrible"? You and I... or God?

Are God's actions limited to what you, or any man, consider to be "just" ?

When God commanded the Israelites in the Old Testament to kill the Caananites, even the innocent babies... do you consider that terrible? Do you now claim that that was "clearly not God" (because you don't see how a loving God would kill sweet little babies) even though God's word plainly tells us He did order those killings? Many unbelievers, atheists, agnostics, etc have made reference to such scriptures as being evidence that either 1... God is not good or 2... God must be a myth because a loving God would never do such a thing.

Their refusal to accept God's word at face value has caused them to reject faith, and reject God's word... to their own destruction. To me,that's sad. But even sadder still is when I see former Christians who have also followed down that same destructive path.

There is no comparison between temporal destruction and endless torture, this is a fallen world, sometimes evil cultures have required physical destruction for the purpose of God.

Pharaoh stood in the way of God's purpose in the physical world, and he was taken out, this in no way defined his final disposition. Sodom was taken out, Jerusalem was taken out, Saddam was taken out, Hitler was taken out...out of the physical world that is.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by crakjak

There is no comparison between temporal destruction and endless torture, this is a fallen world, sometimes evil cultures have required physical destruction for the purpose of God.

Pharaoh stood in the way of God's purpose in the physical world, and he was taken out, this in no way defined his final disposition. Sodom was taken out, Jerusalem was taken out, Saddam was taken out, Hitler was taken out...out of the physical world that is.

I see you you responded to my post, but ignored the main thrust of my post, which is... if you were to agree with Antipas' statement that if something "terrible" is done, it cant be God,because God doesn't do "terrible" things... who defines what's terrible? you and I , or God?

And... is God limited to man's mental boundaries and perception of what is just, or does he set the boundaries himself, according to the counsel of his own will and his own wisdom?