Kings of Leon

[Ron]

I don't know what it is like in the UPC in the States but in Canada, Repentance isn't glossed over, it is the essential first step!

Repentance doesn't stop at the beginning of one's walk with God, but is a common practice!

How many altars have I repented at since coming to God? Too many to count!

I heard AM say that his father is a prayer warrior & prays every day----Repenting.

Hmmmmm!

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Ironic how people are bitter when they mention the fatal flaws the upci yet the same people who accuse others of being better always have negative things to say about churches who grow outside the upci paradigm, even if the church believes in Acts 2:38.

It's okay for district officials to lie and slander others. It's okay for men of prominence to revise history and ignore the fact that many of the founding fathers had different opinions?

Is it bitterness to point out the upci of today is nothing like the upci of the merger?

Is it bitterness to point out the upci didn't have a dress code in its original manual?

Is it bitterness to point out the preachers caught in sexual sins are usually given nothing more than what is equivelent to an in school suspension, if that much while they ask for preachers licenses if they don't preach a subjective dress code for salvation?

I have been in almost evey state east of the Mississippi River, and a few on the other side. Any objective person would agree the upci today is not the same as it was at the merger.

If the upci is supposed to be the standard bearer for revival, why is the average attendance of the North American upci church considerably less than 100 members? The largest segment of upci churches have between 40-80 members. There aren't that many 'daughter churches' in the upci.

The last set of numbers I've seen, if it were not for the foreign numbers, the upci would have less members than the Seventh Day Adventists.

I am honored to be lumped in with other bitter former upci'ers such as Rhoni, Timlan, Daniel A., Bill Price.

I think this is a very sad statement and I'm glad you didn't put me in this group. I want no bitterness in my heart. I'm glad for where we are today, but I will never resent being raised UPC. I have many fond memories from them.

They are the group that brought us to a relationship with Christ and mothered us. As we always say, "You don't talk bad about yo' mama!!!"

[rrford]

Like I said.....

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by tv1a

...I am honored to be lumped in with other bitter former upci'ers such as Rhoni, Timlan, Daniel A., Bill Price.

Nice grouping.

I'm sure Timlan will appreciate it.

I doubt if anyone thinks discussing problems is "bitterness." It's your tone. You don't seem to understand the difference, so I suppose nothing can be done to fix it. Oh well.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Ironic how people are bitter when they mention the fatal flaws the upci yet the same people who accuse others of being better always have negative things to say about churches who grow outside the upci paradigm, even if the church believes in Acts 2:38.

It's okay for district officials to lie and slander others. It's okay for men of prominence to revise history and ignore the fact that many of the founding fathers had different opinions?

Is it bitterness to point out the upci of today is nothing like the upci of the merger?

Is it bitterness to point out the upci didn't have a dress code in its original manual?

Is it bitterness to point out the preachers caught in sexual sins are usually given nothing more than what is equivelent to an in school suspension, if that much while they ask for preachers licenses if they don't preach a subjective dress code for salvation?

I have been in almost evey state east of the Mississippi River, and a few on the other side. Any objective person would agree the upci today is not the same as it was at the merger.

If the upci is supposed to be the standard bearer for revival, why is the average attendance of the North American upci church considerably less than 100 members? The largest segment of upci churches have between 40-80 members. There aren't that many 'daughter churches' in the upci.

The last set of numbers I've seen, if it were not for the foreign numbers, the upci would have less members than the Seventh Day Adventists.

I am honored to be lumped in with other bitter former upci'ers such as Rhoni, Timlan, Daniel A., Bill Price.

I don't understand this logic??
In Canada, which is mostly a secular society anyways, the Catholic Church has the largest Attendance!
Are they saved?

Don't judge a Church by it's attendance.
In Revelation, Smyrna, & Philidelphia were struggling small Churches that were commended by Jesus.

Laodicea, a large prosperous Church was rebuked.

Your logic is flawed.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by tv1a

It's okay for district officials to lie and slander others.

No, but nobody said it was ok nor does that have anything to do with your assertion that suggests MOST of the UPC are unsaved (never really knew Christ)

It's okay for men of prominence to revise history and ignore the fact that many of the founding fathers had different opinions?

No, again see above

Is it bitterness to point out the upci of today is nothing like the upci of the merger?

No, but that was not what you did...point out the UPCI of today is blah blah...you essentially or at least to others, suggested MOST of the UPC is unsaved. Bitterness is usually seen more in someone's attitude not in simply pointing out something that needs to be fixed.

Is it bitterness to point out the upci didn't have a dress code in its original manual?

Again that is not what you did. You did not "point out" anything. You asserted essentially most of the UPC is unsaved...in fact what you basically suggested it seems on the surface is that is is nearly impossible for anyone to REALLY have a real relationship with Jesus while being in the UPCI

Is it bitterness to point out the preachers caught in sexual sins are usually given nothing more than what is equivelent to an in school suspension, if that much while they ask for preachers licenses if they don't preach a subjective dress code for salvation?

See above...really this post is looking more and more like a red herring.

I

have been in almost evey state east of the Mississippi River, and a few on the other side. Any objective person would agree the upci today is not the same as it was at the merger.

Again that really has little to do with what you said and what was being discussed. The topic is not how the UPCI has changed, but the spiritual status of the Kings of Leon and the entire UPCI as touching having a relationship with Jesus

If the upci is supposed to be the standard bearer for revival, why is the average attendance of the North American upci church considerably less than 100 members? The largest segment of upci churches have between 40-80 members. There aren't that many 'daughter churches' in the upci.

WHO...please tell me WHO here argues the UPCI is the standard bearer for revival or anything else? Again another red herring.

The last set of numbers I've seen, if it were not for the foreign numbers, the upci would have less members than the Seventh Day Adventists.

I am honored to be lumped in with other bitter former upci'ers such as Rhoni, Timlan, Daniel A., Bill Price.

Again this is all misdirection away from what was said here. It has nothing to do with a position on the UPCI which probably even current UPCI members believe too...what really matters is HOW one deals with these issues

[tv1a]

If by my tone you mean I don't put sugar on manure, than I'm guilty as charged. If I was a bittered ex upci, I wouldn't have given them their props for the things they do right. The upci may be 30 years late in some cases, but they are slowly but surely getting on board. I am one of the biggest K. Haney fans. I feel bad that a visionary as such is stuck in the quagmire of church politics. The only upci preacher I can think of on par vision wise with Haney is A. Mangun. TF Tenney straddles that fence rather well. Unfortunately many of upci pastoral consituency has derrogatory comments about these men. Would a bittered ex upci stand up for Paul Price and condemn those who used this man of God in their vandetta against Kenneth Haney a few years ago? I don't agree with a lot of what Price has to say, but the treatment he received by those who he was representing was an abomination.

I applaud the youth division for trying to influence modern culture in spite of the political pressure put on them by many preachers in the organization. I am more fair and balanced than just about anyone on this forum.

Do you believe the apostle Paul was bitter when he told the Jews he was done working with them? I imagine Paul was bitter when he told the Galatian church these charlatans were bewitching them to believe another gospel than what they were taught. Jesus definitely was bitter when he told the Pharisees they as dead men walking. Let's not forget about John the Baptist who called the religious phonies a bunch of vipers. Better still, not only did Jesus call the pharisees a generation of vipers, he also said they were going to split hell wide open. (Matthew 23:33) Maybe Jesus was bitter when put on a falls count anywhere match and interrupted the scams going on in the temple.

If your major defense is to trivialize ones comment by using the bitterness card, your case is extremely weak. It's like being accused of racism because you didn't vote for Barak Obama or being called homophobic because you believe homosexuality is a sin.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Nice grouping.

I'm sure Timlan will appreciate it.

I doubt if anyone thinks discussing problems is "bitterness." It's your tone. You don't seem to understand the difference, so I suppose nothing can be done to fix it. Oh well.

[tv1a]

That comment was a tongue in cheek statement. Those people have been accused of being bitter more often than Obama can say "change" in a 24 hour period. My comment was made because I am aware how the game works. I've seen the bitterness card repeatedly used against those people. I didn't include Atlanta Bishop, but he's been accused of being bitter.

I am disappointed that my heritage was not a true representation of Christ by the time it was my turn to impact the world. I would have loved to been a part of the organization at the merger.


I have not one ounce of bitterness in my heart. If scripture is true, God will severly judge those who have done what they have done and as David says he will have the last laugh. God has already promised a table prepared for me in front of my enemies. God is already moving in that direction now.

Originally Posted by Sherri

I think this is a very sad statement and I'm glad you didn't put me in this group. I want no bitterness in my heart. I'm glad for where we are today, but I will never resent being raised UPC. I have many fond memories from them.

They are the group that brought us to a relationship with Christ and mothered us. As we always say, "You don't talk bad about yo' mama!!!"

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I think this is a very sad statement and I'm glad you didn't put me in this group. I want no bitterness in my heart. I'm glad for where we are today, but I will never resent being raised UPC. I have many fond memories from them.

They are the group that brought us to a relationship with Christ and mothered us. As we always say, "You don't talk bad about yo' mama!!!"

Very well said.

[tv1a]

The point being if an organization claims hundreds of thousands getting the Holy Ghost each year, why are they failing to crack a million constituents?

I'm not suggesting those people aren't getting the Holy Ghost. I'm suggesting that the upci is like a person with diarhea. The person coming in the front door leaves through the back door almost as quick as they came in.

I can go to any church with new converts. In six months to a year, over half of them would be gone. It's not that noticable when hundreds and thousands are baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost every year. But when a church is struggling to get a dozen saved every year, a 50% attrition rate is harmful.

Originally Posted by Ron

I don't understand this logic??
In Canada, which is mostly a secular society anyways, the Catholic Church has the largest Attendance!
Are they saved?

Don't judge a Church by it's attendance.
In Revelation, Smyrna, & Philidelphia were struggling small Churches that were commended by Jesus.

Laodicea, a large prosperous Church was rebuked.

Your logic is flawed.