TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by George

So is emergent church doctrine going to take the place of "...Charismaticism will be over in the next two years..." ???

It's not a matter of emergent church doctrine. It's a matter of "revival"...

Every great church movement by the end of the third generation has lost the fire that started their movement.

I think one of the reasons is at some point they all believe they can solve all issues by doctrinal discussions and learning. Both of those are necessary. But the great Pentecostal movement was born out of a need for personal empowerment to reach the lost...not by education and gaining more knowledge. Not by fancy church building techniques that really do nothing more than draw people from a smaller church into a larger one with a StarBucks on the campus.

We can't unify because of different doctrines, but maybe we can unify in direction...on our faces seeking God to rekindle the Pentecostal fire in us all as a movement. The Charismatics also helped to move them in the wrong direction. They were looking for something new and that search brought them a non-biblical experience that lead to nothing.

We may not get the large churches with the starbucks on the corner. We may not get the market share of the thousands of anonymous faces that attend a Joel Osteen meeting, but we will definitely grow and gain the numbers of people that really want to be part of a church body and not rather a church membership.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

He threw them out for "over charging" for necessary sacrifices.

Has your church ever made peanut brittle, or hosted any fund raising events, or allowed anyone to sell anything in the church, i.e. evangelists selling CD's, missionaries selling books, etc?

I see no comparison. Your talking about fundraising and giving to ministries. We are talking about a commercial coffee house ! There is nothing about that for God. It is open even when the church is not. (Hmmmmm, wonder if the coffee depot is tax exempt too )

Sorry, but this is really a no brainer. Even the things we do that you mentioned above are done in the Christian Academy building next door. We don't have booths set up in the foyer. Since when did going to church become about us and our wants and desires ?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by scotty

I see no comparison. Your talking about fundraising and giving to ministries. We are talking about a commercial coffee house ! There is nothing about that for God. It is open even when the church is not. (Hmmmmm, wonder if the coffee depot is tax exempt too )

Sorry, but this is really a no brainer. Even the things we do that you mentioned above are done in the Christian Academy building next door. We don't have booths set up in the foyer. Since when did going to church become about us and our wants and desires ?

So, you wouldn't have a problem with these things as long as they were done in a separate building?

Not arguing, just asking for clarification?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I think you are missing the point.

The coffee bars are to encourage people to hang out and get to know one another - you know, learn where there might be some needs in their lives and minister to them one on one. Why give Starbucks the money when they can come to church and get it and rub elbows with the saints?

Why would anyone try to "trick" people to come to church - - they either want God or they don't.

I don't see anywhere the apostles used merchandise to bring in the masses. There were feast in different homes, but the feast was because of the masses, not the other way around. The church was built on itself, having church. The apostles went to the tabernacle to teach and pray, they went to peoples homes to fellowship and eat.

The question is a valid one, why would anyone want to tempt people to come to church ?

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

So, what's the difference?

If you have a Starbucks in the foyer of the church, I'm quite sure the church is benefitting financially from its business.

Not sure I understand the difference here - no one is making anyone purchase a cup of coffee from the coffee shop before they can enter the sanctuary, if they don't want one, they don't have to buy one.

By the way, most churhes have "fellowship halls" for the sole purpose of "fellowshipping".

Yes, fellowship halls , that is where fellowship belongs. It does not matter if someone wants coffee or not. Coffee should not be the reason we go to church.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

So, you wouldn't have a problem with these things as long as they were done in a separate building?

Not arguing, just asking for clarification?

If the church wants to own a business or sell things to people that is the churches business. But the tabernacle is no place for it. I believe that was the point behind Jesus' anger. Not what they were doing, but where they had chosen to do it. He did not condemn them as just being thieves , but being theives in the tabernacle.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by scotty

I don't see anywhere the apostles used merchandise to bring in the masses. There were feast in different homes, but the feast was because of the masses, not the other way around. The church was built on itself, having church. The apostles went to the tabernacle to teach and pray, they went to peoples homes to fellowship and eat.

The question is a valid one, why would anyone want to tempt people to come to church ?



Yes, fellowship halls , that is where fellowship belongs. It does not matter if someone wants coffee or not. Coffee should not be the reason we go to church.

Scottay, you are being difficult.......lol!

No one is saying coffee is the reason you go to church.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It's not a matter of emergent church doctrine. It's a matter of "revival"...

Every great church movement by the end of the third generation has lost the fire that started their movement.

I think one of the reasons is at some point they all believe they can solve all issues by doctrinal discussions and learning. Both of those are necessary. But the great Pentecostal movement was born out of a need for personal empowerment to reach the lost...not by education and gaining more knowledge. Not by fancy church building techniques that really do nothing more than draw people from a smaller church into a larger one with a StarBucks on the campus.

We can't unify because of different doctrines, but maybe we can unify in direction...on our faces seeking God to rekindle the Pentecostal fire in us all as a movement. The Charismatics also helped to move them in the wrong direction. They were looking for something new and that search brought them a non-biblical experience that lead to nothing.

We may not get the large churches with the starbucks on the corner. We may not get the market share of the thousands of anonymous faces that attend a Joel Osteen meeting, but we will definitely grow and gain the numbers of people that really want to be part of a church body and not rather a church membership.

You hit the nail in the head. Yes we need education and knowledge but we must never lose our passion for the lost and our desire to be passionate followers of Christ.

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

So, what's the difference?

If you have a Starbucks in the foyer of the church, I'm quite sure the church is benefitting financially from its business.

Not sure I understand the difference here - no one is making anyone purchase a cup of coffee from the coffee shop before they can enter the sanctuary, if they don't want one, they don't have to buy one.

By the way, most churhes have "fellowship halls" for the sole purpose of "fellowshipping".

I have no problem with fellowship or having coffee, getting to know one another better, etc I think that is very healthy & neccessary for a church.

I just don't want it to take the place of prayer or church. everything in its proper place.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Scottay, you are being difficult.......lol!

No one is saying coffee is the reason you go to church.

If they don't serve a good carmel latte, I ain't going!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

You hit the nail in the head. Yes we need education and knowledge but we must never lose our passion for the lost and our desire to be passionate followers of Christ.

It was that desire for the lost that motivated the early Pentecostals to seek God. It was evidenced by how fast they spread out and started new churches, set up tent revivals and sent missionaries around the world