Is baptism essential unto salvation? - Page 5

clgustaveson · #41 06-01-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I have thick skin.

I am saying the primary guide is not conscience but is what is already written in scripture. Convictions are nice, but are notoriously unreliable, IMHO.

So yes, things like adultery, homosexuality, murder, are to be "judged" without regard to convictions one may have to the contrary.

So you would regard a preconceived relationship over a newly birthed one?

Does the couple that wed in a traditional wedding love eachother more?

Hoovie · #42 06-01-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clgustaveson

So you would regard a preconceived relationship over a newly birthed one?

Does the couple that wed in a traditional wedding love eachother more?

I guess I'm not sure what the analogy is.

I don't know that love is even a prerequisite for marriage...

But the scriptures should define and measure our convictions - not be at odds with them.

bishoph · #43 06-01-2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staysharp

If baptism could save u, u wouldn't need the cross. U aren't saved at baptism. U were saved 2k years ago when Christ gave his life for humanity.

A new believer is asked to be baptized as a physical response to a spiritual work. A public testimony of Christ's death, burial & resurrection.

If one refuses baptism, I would question his dedication and faith to Christ.

Staysharp are you a Baptist now? You sure gave a great BAPTIST response.....an outward sign of an inward grace!

Since Elder Epley has not made it to this thread as yet....let me make his usual statement ....with which I agree! There is not one person since the day of Pentecost that has been saved without obedience to Acts 2:38. Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.....won't make it to heaven without it!

Aquila · #44 06-01-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

Since Elder Epley has not made it to this thread as yet....let me make his usual statement ....with which I agree! There is not one person since the day of Pentecost that has been saved without obedience to Acts 2:38. Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.....won't make it to heaven without it!

There have been many who were bound by religious traditions down through the ages who experienced the Holy Ghost baptism. Catholics often called this "ecstasy". It wasn't uncommon for individuals who experienced this to speak with tongues, see visions, have angelic visitations, etc. Most had a very limited or a traditionalized view of Scripture. (I assure you that you also have a very traditioanlized and Catholic practice in your own faith where the light of full Apostolic truth hasn't shown.) However, their hearts were seeking God through Christ Jesus the only way they knew. Perhaps most of them were baptized in titles, but in most cases they were baptized as a result of their desire to be obedient to Scripture.

I would agree that the Apostolic formula for water baptism is in the singular name of Jesus Christ. However, baptism ISN'T a magic ritual where the words have to be just right. It is more the disposition of the individual's heart than the words uttered that makes baptism effectual.

So one has to ask...

Does God judge the heart or the Sacrament?

staysharp · #45 06-02-2009, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

Staysharp are you a Baptist now? You sure gave a great BAPTIST response.....an outward sign of an inward grace!

Since Elder Epley has not made it to this thread as yet....let me make his usual statement ....with which I agree! There is not one person since the day of Pentecost that has been saved without obedience to Acts 2:38. Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.....won't make it to heaven without it!

And the scripture to back this statement up is?

staysharp · #46 06-02-2009, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

There have been many who were bound by religious traditions down through the ages who experienced the Holy Ghost baptism. Catholics often called this "ecstasy". It wasn't uncommon for individuals who experienced this to speak with tongues, see visions, have angelic visitations, etc. Most had a very limited or a traditionalized view of Scripture. (I assure you that you also have a very traditioanlized and Catholic practice in your own faith where the light of full Apostolic truth hasn't shown.) However, their hearts were seeking God through Christ Jesus the only way they knew. Perhaps most of them were baptized in titles, but in most cases they were baptized as a result of their desire to be obedient to Scripture.

I would agree that the Apostolic formula for water baptism is in the singular name of Jesus Christ. However, baptism ISN'T a magic ritual where the words have to be just right. It is more the disposition of the individual's heart than the words uttered that makes baptism effectual.

So one has to ask...

Does God judge the heart or the Sacrament?

:thum bsup

Does anyone believe the revelation of grace?

Rom 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

clgustaveson · #47 06-02-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

Staysharp are you a Baptist now? You sure gave a great BAPTIST response.....an outward sign of an inward grace!

Since Elder Epley has not made it to this thread as yet....let me make his usual statement ....with which I agree! There is not one person since the day of Pentecost that has been saved without obedience to Acts 2:38. Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.....won't make it to heaven without it!

Ok, so your answering the question without answering it... The problem I see with how you are stating this is that you are judging souls without a solid foundation.... where is this stated in the Bible?

Show me something concrete...

clgustaveson · #48 06-02-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I guess I'm not sure what the analogy is.

I don't know that love is even a prerequisite for marriage...

But the scriptures should define and measure our convictions - not be at odds with them.

I don't want this to divert us from the original topic but I will explain briefly what I am hinting at...

If getting baptized is a requirement for salvation, it is the failure to do so that is the action of consequence... therefore intent of the action or reason cant be judged in the same fashion as some sort of sin that we would commit.

So all of the ideological and philosophical debates regarding death before one could be baptized or the physical inability are just fun, because this is quite different from a sin of omission... since the act is explicit and very clear as what to do.

So follow me here... if a man doesn't follow a symbolic path to express his faith does he not have faith?

What saving power is there in symbolism? Making the assumption that everyone in the Bible did it so I should just isn't a strong enough argument to say that it is a requirement....

Being born of water and of spirit is a requirement, maybe not the only but it is one.... just being here pretty much shows we have accomplished one of those-- So do we really need to be baptized to go to be saved?

OnTheFritz · #49 06-02-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bishoph

Staysharp are you a Baptist now? You sure gave a great BAPTIST response.....an outward sign of an inward grace!

Since Elder Epley has not made it to this thread as yet....let me make his usual statement ....with which I agree! There is not one person since the day of Pentecost that has been saved without obedience to Acts 2:38. Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.....won't make it to heaven without it!

Opinion stated as fact..... yep, that sounds like Bro. Epley.

clgustaveson · #50 06-02-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheFritz

Opinion stated as fact..... yep, that sounds like Bro. Epley.

What is your belief?

I am just looking for logic amongst unsupported assumptions... I used to believe it was a requirement but lately I just don't see the evidence. So, I am looking to see evidence for either side, but both sides seem to be unsupported...