Why Such A Fuss Over Standards!!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Falla39

ILG,
Your "elders" (Whoever you are speaking of) and my "elders" may be two different
things. Who are our elders?

People who are meant to lead and guide you in this life. They may be your parents or your spiritual leaders or any number of people who should lead you and guide you.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Don't come on here and start threads like this and not expect to be challenged. I say these things respectfully, whether you think I do or not.

ILG,
Sister Falla's comments have hugh merit here. Mainly, because we all know her age and that reaching back - the morality, decency and respect in this country was in a much better place than it is today. She draws on that and probably really misses it.

Here are three points she made that you highlighted:

O, how I thank God for the wisdom and instruction of a godly father and mother. The prayers of my late grandmother, my late father and mother, was enough to put the enemy to flight. These were the ones watching for our souls.

But I first learned to respect and reference my earthly father.

BUT for the grace and mercy of ALMIGHTY GOD, I could have a different story. But because of listening to someone who had been further down the road and was older and wiser than myself, God saved us from a lot of sorrow.

Her experience is NOT hard to believe and understand where she found the beauty! Oh, to turn back time!!

Now, dear girl, you have posted some of your past and I share a few of the same experiences. Instead of attacking Sister Falla for her bygone days of beauty (don't we miss that era!) express yourself in the way you KNOW how to do it and explain where you stand and where you come from and WHY some of these things are painful for you to accept. You can do it! It would help here!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Now, dear girl, you have posted some of your past and I share a few of the same experiences. Instead of attacking Sister Falla for her bygone days of beauty (don't we miss that era!) express yourself in the way you KNOW how to do it and explain where you stand and where you come from and WHY some of these things are painful for you to accept. You can do it! It would help here!

Not sure where you're going with this PO. It's pretty simple to me. If someone comes on here and says everyone should think like them or they are bitter and need to take lessons from them, I don't respect that. End of story. I wasn't attacking Falla for her "by-gone days of beauty". I said they were good, fine and dandy and I was happy for her. What I am "attacking" (if you can call it that) is the arrogance that everyone should just respect their elders and listen to them and they would live happily ever after. That is simply not true.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

Not sure where you're going with this PO. It's pretty simple to me. If someone comes on here and says everyone should think like them or they are bitter and need to take lessons from them, I don't respect that. End of story. I wasn't attacking Falla for her "by-gone days of beauty". I said they were good, fine and dandy and I was happy for her. What I am "attacking" (if you can call it that) is the arrogance that everyone should just respect their elders and listen to them and they would live happily ever after. That is simply not true.

I'm thinking that Sister Falla has had great people in her life that she has been able to respect, but her wisdom also makes me believe she also means to say that she puts merit in the words of Exodus 14:14 "The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace."

The respect is for the "will" of God in our lives as we know that all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose.

From my point of view - I have experienced a great deal of pain in the church by leaders and saints. Heard people harp on outward dress and television to get a rise and a shout, BUT I knew that not ALL men and women were of this persona. I saw that they were not.

When men and women treated my husband and I ugly for standing for truth - I went to God and He spoke to me, encouraged me, and set my feet more firmly planted that He would lead and guide me into all truth and that I need not fear what man can do unto me.

As much as we want to rag out the "standards" preachers, God is still in the midst of these people and to some of us He says, "Stay where you are. I am building a church."

What can I do? Follow men or follow God?

So, in a nutshell, when Sis. Falla says to respect our elders, she is saying to hold your peace, follow after God, do His will and you will be blessed. Her words, IMO, are more far reaching and being misunderstood.

It seems, unless I am misunderstanding, there are people that feel they can make choices of where they will attend church and what they will believe because this is their right. When we become a servant of God, it is only His choice - as He knows the end from the beginning. When He builds us, molds us, makes us - we can't bail from situations - no matter how painful - we must honor Him, His Word and His will. We must not fight a carnal fight with those that are in leadership that oppose us. I learned that lesson the hard way! Part of these situations are what gives us wisdom and where we learn "sobriety" - which is the most important thing!

This is what I think Falla is talking about.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm thinking that Sister Falla has had great people in her life that she has been able to respect, but her wisdom also makes me believe she also means to say that she puts merit in the words of Exodus 14:14 "The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace."

The respect is for the "will" of God in our lives as we know that all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to His purpose.

From my point of view - I have experienced a great deal of pain in the church by leaders and saints. Heard people harp on outward dress and television to get a rise and a shout, BUT I knew that not ALL men and women were of this persona. I saw that they were not.

When men and women treated my husband and I ugly for standing for truth - I went to God and He spoke to me, encouraged me, and set my feet more firmly planted that He would lead and guide me into all truth and that I need not fear what man can do unto me.

As much as we want to rag out the "standards" preachers, God is still in the midst of these people and to some of us He says, "Stay where you are. I am building a church."

What can I do? Follow men or follow God?

So, in a nutshell, when Sis. Falla says to respect our elders, she is saying to hold your peace, follow after God, do His will and you will be blessed. Her words, IMO, are more far reaching and being misunderstood.

It seems, unless I am misunderstanding, there are people that feel they can make choices of where they will attend church and what they will believe because this is their right. When we become a servant of God, it is only His choice - as He knows the end from the beginning. When He builds us, molds us, makes us - we can't bail from situations - no matter how painful - we must honor Him, His Word and His will. We must not fight a carnal fight with those that are in leadership that oppose us. I learned that lesson the hard way! Part of these situations are what gives us wisdom and where we learn "sobriety" - which is the most important thing!

This is what I think Falla is talking about.

Very good post PO!

[Michlow]

ILG & Falla ~

I just wanted to let you know, that you're both right! Sometimes the right thing to do is to listen to someone who is older and wiser. But other times, the best thing to do, is to find the strength to resist the pressure to submit to someone who is wrong.

But isn't that the whole point of Jesus in us? To lead us, and guide us, and show us which paths to take, and what choices to make?

It simply doesn't have to be one way or the other. Yes, we need other believers to encourage us in our faith walk, but we always need to follow God first.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

As much as we want to rag out the "standards" preachers, God is still in the midst of these people and to some of us He says, "Stay where you are. I am building a church."

I don't disagree with this. And I'm not sure people want to "rag out" standards preachers as much as they simply want respect for their own views. Usually it is the standards preachers "ragging" out others for not being like them.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michlow

ILG & Falla ~

I just wanted to let you know, that you're both right! Sometimes the right thing to do is to listen to someone who is older and wiser. But other times, the best thing to do, is to find the strength to resist the pressure to submit to someone who is wrong.

But isn't that the whole point of Jesus in us? To lead us, and guide us, and show us which paths to take, and what choices to make?

It simply doesn't have to be one way or the other. Yes, we need other believers to encourage us in our faith walk, but we always need to follow God first.

I certainly agree that listening to our elders is sometimes the right thing to do. However, to say that if people would only listen to their elders and everything would be peachy is not correct. It's misleading, if not downright dangerous.

[MissBrattified]

Obvious disconnect going on here.

I appreciate the input my elders have in my life, but that doesn't mean I'm required to submit to every whim and suggestion. My mother is one of the best Christians I know--or will probably ever know for that matter--but we disagree on certain issues. I respect her opinions, and I don't waste any time trying to convince her that I'm right. Nor does she waste anytime trying to convince me that she's right.

SOME issues are between a person and God, and thankfully the elders in my life are wise enough to see that. It wasn't always so....

My father, on the other hand, couldn't stand to be contradicted. Unless he was just in the mood to argue. And then, if I made a terribly good point, he would fall back on the "I'm your father, you must respect me", or "I'm your pastor, you must respect me", and the conversation was over. (I wouldn't push the conversation past that--what would have been the point?)

My previous pastor was not to be questioned, Period. It didn't matter what was said, his word was law and gospel. And I didn't question him. When it got to be more than I could take, (and when I finally bore the brunt of his character--it "hit home", so to speak), we just left. I still feel major guilt for not standing up for other people he hurt. I didn't even blink an eye until the pain hit my house.

The way I got past that was NOT by submitting to the elder, the pastor. We had to leave, to relocate, to get out of that environment completely, before I could shake it off, clear my head, and remember who my God was. Not man, that's for sure.

I am NOT bitter, but I don't embrace some rose-colored idea that if I were to return things would be any different. Forgiving people doesn't mean you have to put yourself back in harm's way, OR that you have to place yourself under the authority of a tyrant.

I don't agree with PO that we can't choose where we attend church. I think that is over-spiritualizing the concept of assembling together with other believers. Going to church is a simple act of meeting with like minded people to worship God and be taught the Word. Now, for those in leadership, it may take on a more complex dynamic, but I do not buy into the idea that we can't attend a different assembly without a personal directive from God. If my husband gets a job in a new city, and we relocate, I'm going to follow my husband, and we will find a new assembly in the new city. It isn't as complex as asking God to reveal to me first whether it's His will. I assume that He is leading my husband, and I follow my husband as He follows Christ--and cares for his family.

Now, that's not to say that we don't pray over major decisions, because we do. But I dislike the idea that people are limited to one single church until God tells them to move. A church, at least as a colloquialism, is just a group of people gathered for a single purpose, and there are lots of places to gather--as there should be.

Sister Falla, It seems by your response that you feel disrespected, or at least your life experiences might have been written off as null and void. I don't think that's what ILG meant at all. I think when you make sweeping statements, though, you are bound to hit someone with that broad brush, and it can be painful for those who feel they don't deserve the paint job.

It IS unfair to expect no one to contradict or question your point of view, because no doubt their experiences have been different. I have difficulty believing some people's experiences, because it hasn't been mine, but when I look them in the eye and see real pain barely concealed, and naivete that is lost forever, I can't deny the truth of their experiences. Nor can I be so trite as to label them "bitter" simply because it isn't entirely behind them.

The other day my mother and older sister were talking about family history, and upon comparing dates they realized it was only about an 8-year span in their life that my father was truly a drunken, drug addicted, abusive, mean man. 8 years is actually a long time, but over the years, it had felt like a much longer time, so great was the negative affect on their lives. My sister is in her 50's, and she STILL deals with the pain he caused. My mother still avoids talking about those years, and with a little sweep of her hand, she'll move on to more positive topics, and say something along the lines of, "Well, your Daddy was a sinner then."

I even dealt with some of the aftermath, because the personality that lends itself to addiction still remained to a degree even after he was saved. I won't go into details, but even though I knew my father loved me, and that he loved my mother, and that deep down he wanted the best for us, there were times when he caused me great emotional pain--and HE was my elder. Obedience was required when I was growing up, but when I became an adult, I put a clear boundary between his inconsistencies and how I wanted to approach my relationship with God. I didn't disrespect him, but I also didn't continue obeying him in areas in which I felt he was in error.

So, I guess I rambled along to say--our elders ARE very valuable to us. And we are to respect them and love them. But to be blind to their faults and obey someone who instructs us in a crooked path is dangerous. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a [wo]man, I put away childish things. Blind obedience is childish. And foolish.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

And what do you think would be the result, if the words were received, and the scriptures were searched, and those things were found NOT to be so?

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

What can I do? Follow men or follow God?

So, in a nutshell, when Sis. Falla says to respect our elders, she is saying to hold your peace, follow after God, do His will and you will be blessed. Her words, IMO, are more far reaching and being misunderstood.

It seems, unless I am misunderstanding, there are people that feel they can make choices of where they will attend church and what they will believe because this is their right. When we become a servant of God, it is only His choice - as He knows the end from the beginning. When He builds us, molds us, makes us - we can't bail from situations - no matter how painful - we must honor Him, His Word and His will. We must not fight a carnal fight with those that are in leadership that oppose us. I learned that lesson the hard way! Part of these situations are what gives us wisdom and where we learn "sobriety" - which is the most important thing!

This is what I think Falla is talking about.

Yes, Falla is talking about that, but I think her and some of you can't possibly understand where others are coming from because you have not been abused by your trust in those that should have been watching for our souls instead of watching what we were wearing.

So, when the Elders and parents are more interested in "standards" and supporting the church doctrines than about you and your soul, what then?

When you leave to "find God" and discover all the things you were taught and bought hook, line and sinker were all made up by men, then what? Many people here did not fight against the dress standards, they supported them and looked down their nose at others that "left the standards" and believed they were going to hell. It was only when something else came up, the final and last abusive incident that broke the camels back, that they left.

Once gone, they start searching the scriptures without the interpretations of men, just reading the Bible, and they find they have been lied to! These "standards" and the doctrine that elders can lord over you and make decisions about your life is all a lie.

Then God shows you that dressing the "standard" is wrong for where He is leading you and you are told you are going to hell for leaving the church and dressing normal. Suddenly you are the enemy and you don't have family, friends or elders, all because you are seeking God's approval instead of man's approval.

Honestly, some of you have no clue the pain and confusion people are going through! Why all the talk about standards? Because we are searching for the truth, and not just the traditions of men that have been handed down through the generations. We don't want to be like the pharasees that make traditions something "of God that can't be changed."

The abuse is so strong in places, that people come here and are afraid they will be found by those they left! We have peace with God, but are still afraid of the men that we left, they still control our lives because of our family members they still have with them. It is a pain we will have forever.

I think that is what some are trying to express here.

With much love and respect for all of those that still believe that they must hold the standards of men. I know you can't read my intent and it was not written with anger. I just want to clarify what I think some are feeling.