Is baptism essential unto salvation? - Page 60

*AQuietPlace* · #**591** 07-11-2009, 10:44 AM

So, repentance... does that means asking for forgiveness for your sins, or is it forgiveness for your unbelief?

If we believe that the sins are GONE because of Jesus' work, do we need to ask for forgiveness for them again?

HopePreacher · #**592** 07-11-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

So, repentance... does that means asking for forgiveness for your sins, or is it forgiveness for your unbelief?
If we believe that the sins are GONE because of Jesus' work, do we need to ask for forgiveness for them again?

Repentance means neither of those things. Repentance is a turnaround. It is changing direction - we were going one way and now we are going the other way. Paul says that godly sorrow brings repenatnce that leads to salvation.'

To grasp the meaning of this discussion on when the blood is applied just think of a ring (a finger ring). Lay the ring flat on a table and pretent that it is as big as a football field. Now see yourself running along the edge of the ring trying to find the end of the ring - you will never find it.

another example is this: there are two pastors who believe the same basic message. One is a one stepper and preaches the finished work of Calvary; the other is a three stepper and believe one must be baptized to apply the blood. New believers come into each congregation and the pastor baptizes the new believers into Christ. Those new believers go on to become good saints in that assembly. The end result is the same so: who was right?

We ask questions that have answers only for those who are preedisposed to believe the right (in our opinion) answers.

So, to understand the answer to this dilemma just take a ring and....

Adino · #**593** 07-11-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

So, repentance... does that means asking for forgiveness for your sins, or is it forgiveness for your unbelief?

No. Repentance is the heart returning to God through faith in Christ. Conversion to Christ takes place in repentance. We are not asking for forgiveness of anything. We are turning from dead works to faith in Christ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

If we believe that the sins are GONE because of Jesus' work, do we need to ask for forgiveness for them again?

No. Rest in the accomplished forgiveness of the Cross. Why ask for something to be done which has already been accomplished?

If we're sitting around a kitchen table with a watermelon on the tabletop and I see you remove the watermelon from the tabletop and destroy it in the garbage disposal, why would I, at a later time, ask you to remove the watermelon from the tabletop? It's already gone.

If we ask for forgiveness that has already been accomplished it is only an indication we have yet to fully trust in the fact that remission indeed took place. It is evidence of unbelief.

When we stumble, we should simply remember the remission of the Cross, thank God for giving his Son, and move forward in grateful servitude.

Adino · #**594** 07-11-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HopePreacher

Repentance means neither of those things. Repentance is a turnaround. It is changing direction - we were going one way and now we are going the other way. Paul says that godly sorrow brings repenatnce that leads to salvation.'

To grasp the meaning of this discussion on when the blood is applied just think of a ring (a finger ring). Lay the ring flat on a table and pretent that it is as big as a football field. Now see yourself running along the edge of the ring trying to find the end of the ring - you will never find it.

another example is this: there are two pastors who believe the same basic message. One is a one stepper and preaches the finished work of Calvary; the other is a three stepper and believe one must be baptized to apply the blood. New believers come into each congregation and the pastor baptizes the new believers into Christ. Those new believers go on to become good saints in that assembly. The end result is the same so: who was right?

We ask questions that have answers only for those who are preedisposed to believe the right (in our opinion) answers.

So, to understand the answer to this dilemma just take a ring and....

Yet if the blood was historically applied and we say it isn't applied until baptism we are in disbelief of the historic application. We are therefore in disbelief of the Gospel. It matters what we believe.

Steve Epley · #**595** 07-11-2009, 03:16 PM

Man accepts Calvary's pardon by obeying Christ command Luke 24:47-Mk.16:16-Mt.28:19. Only OBEYING from the heart that FORM of doctrine saves. Rom.6:17
Your 'faith' is NOT the 'faith' of the Bible it is only mental assent of a historical event rather than the experience purchased by that event. The historical ONLY saves when it is personally experience in obeying the gospel message of Acys 2:38.
You are saying SIN is NOT the reason for man's journey into Hell but Paul says the wages of sin is death. Rom.6:23
Forgiven sins historically only save those who accept that forgiveness and remission provided for in that act.

SeekingOne · #**596** 07-11-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You are saying SIN is NOT the reason for man's journey into Hell but Paul says the wages of sin is death. Rom.6:23
Forgiven sins historically only save those who accept that forgiveness and remission provided for in that act.

The part in bold above is a good point. I also think about the verse that talks about a sick person being prayed for, them getting healed and their sins forgiven. If their sins were already forgiven, then how does that scripture fit in this discussion?

Not taking sides here at all, I agree with HopePreacher that we just need to obey the scriptures and we will be safe.

GrowingPains · #**597** 07-11-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

No. Rest in the accomplished forgiveness of the Cross. Why ask for something to be done which has already been accomplished?
.

This is an amazing statement to me. It discourages men and chastises their faith to ask for forgiveness of their sins. I seem to remember scriptures about confessing our sins, and that he is faithful and just to forgive. It wasn't all just done and don't worry about it.

GrowingPains · #**598** 07-11-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adino

Yet if the blood was historically applied and we say it isn't applied until baptism we are in disbelief of the historic application. We are therefore in disbelief of the Gospel. It matters what we believe.

Than I guess I'm unsaved, Adino. Amazing how you liberty of theology actually backfires and puts us in hell. I'm asked God forgiveness, I've repented (and repent daily), I've received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I've been baptize, I strive to please God... despite all that, I'm lost on what you call a technicality because I seem to believe scripture, and you think it is unbelief. Amazing!!

Adino · #**599** 07-11-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeekingOne

The part in bold above is a good point. I also think about the verse that talks about a sick person being prayed for, them getting healed and their sins forgiven. If their sins were already forgiven, then how does that scripture fit in this discussion?

Not taking sides here at all, I agree with HopePreacher that we just need to obey the scriptures and we will be safe.

The wages of sin is spiritual death. A servant of sin acts in unbelief. The gift of God is eternal life. Life comes only to those who believe. Those who have been made free from sin are now servants of righteousness and have life.

The James passage deals with one's relation with his peers, which is why the faults are to be confessed, not to God, but one to another. The forgiveness is from our brethren. The passage goes on to deal with sinners being converted to the truth resulting in life. Again, it is only the believer who has life (John 3:15-16, 36; John 5:24; John 6:40,47; John 11:25,26). Some have offered that the whole passage deals with the unconverted.

Adino · #**600** 07-11-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Than I guess I'm unsaved, Adino. Amazing how you liberty of theology actually backfires and puts us in hell. I'm asked God forgiveness, I've repented (and repent daily), I've received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I've been baptize, I strive to please God... despite all that, I'm lost on what you call a technicality because I seem to believe scripture, and you think it is unbelief. Amazing!!

Matthew 7:22 comes to mind, but I truly hope you are saved in spite of your doctrine. We will leave that up to God, who knows the heart to decide.

You have to come to terms with the resurrection, my friend. Our sins were placed on Christ. Christ rose. That he rose proved something concerning the sin imputed to him. It proved they had been removed. It proved the blood of Christ was adequately sufficient in their removal. It proved that God's plan for sin remission effectively worked.

You can say till the cows come home how you think you finish this work of remission in baptism, but it doesn't negate the fact that Christ rose from the dead declaring those sins GONE.

Rest in that Good News.

Is your faith in Christ alone or is it in Christ PLUS your additional self saving works? Is your faith perpetually in what Christ did to KEEP you saved or is it in your daily ability to remain 'good enough' to be saved? Is the object of your faith Christ alone or Christ PLUS you?