Is baptism essential unto salvation?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'll launch into a hot button issue...

I believe that water baptism is absolutely essential for Christian salvation. However, I'm partial to pouring as a mode of baptism. I'm not wanting to debate this here but I'll give you a link to a site that addresses some of the reasons why I believe this (http://www.reformedonline.com/view/r...%20Baptism.htm). While I don't entirely agree with this person on every point, I believe he adequately explains why effusion is at the very least an equally valid mode of baptism.

Now to the main point of this post...

I don't believe in the "Jesus Name" formula.

That's right, I don't believe in the "Jesus Name" formula. However, I also don't believe in the Trinitarian formula. In fact, I don't believe that one can biblically establish a baptismal "formula" from Scripture. In addition, I believe that to establish a set "formula" is to sacramentalize baptism and negate baptism's true biblical blessing. In Apostolic churches throughout the world a formula such as,

"According to the profession of your faith, I hereby baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins."

..., or some such formula. I believe that this isn't biblical.

I believe that it is the convert who is to call on the name of Jesus Christ at their water baptism, not a religious official. That negates baptism even having a said "formula".

I just thought I'd drop that one your way here guys.

Good article. Moot point to me, but good article.

And, actually, no..... Christ did not command us to be baptized. He commanded his disciples to disciple and to baptize .......

Those who believed the Gospel were to be baptized as part of the discipling process. Had nothing to do with salvation before God, only with being accepted as saved before the Church.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Adino

Good article. Moot point to me, but good article.

And, actually, no..... Christ did not command us to be baptized. He commanded his disciples to disciple and to baptize .......

Those who believed the Gospel were to be baptized as part of the discipling process. Had nothing to do with salvation before God, only with being accepted as saved before the Church.

How do you reconcile this with Christ's words to Nicodemus?

(John 3:5 KJV)
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Adino]

It is said reconciliation "describes the end of the estrangement, caused by sin, between God and humanity."

2Corinthians 5:18-21

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Prior to the Cross God and man stood back to back.

The Cross reconciled the world unto God by remitting their sins. God now stands facing man who has his back to God unaware that God has removed their sins, i.e., the cause of estrangement.

We've been given the Good News of the reconciliation of the Cross and are to inform all men that God, who now stands facing him with open arms, has removed all cause of estrangement.

Man is to 'be reconciled to God' by turning to God through faith in the Gospel (Good News) of reconciliation which happened on the Cross.

God and man who once stood back to back now stand in face to face fellowship...... all due to the reconciliation of the Cross.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How do you reconcile this with Christ's words to Nicodemus?

(John 3:5 KJV)
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I see no reference to baptism in this passage. I do see John's consistent metaphorical use of the word 'water' as reference to the 'Spirit.'

He repeats the metaphor in the very next chapter (4) and again in chapter 7. I see no reason to discard its metaphorical use in chapter 3. This position holds that Christ is simply adding emphasis to the idea of spiritual rebirth which becomes the continued focus of the chapter.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Did the resurrection prove a finished work of sin remission? If it did, there is no additional remission after that event.

Was it possible for Christ to be raised without those sins imputed to him first being completely removed from existence?

NOT ONE person has argued to the contrary of this. Jesus ONCE for all took care of sin by bearing them to Calvary and shedding His holy blood to remit them. THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The question is how I PERSONALLY recieve the remission of sins provided! And the man who Jesus gave the keys to(and it wasn't Bernie) said we recieve remission of sins in immersion in Jesus Name. Your argument is with Jesus & Peter NOT I! I just believe what they said.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

Steve said:
Steve, will you agree that the actual remission of sins and to personally experience that remission of sins are two very separate and distinct events which happen at two very separate and distinct times?

Remission of sins was purchased by Jesus Blood and I recieved this remission when I was immersed in Jesus Name IF Jesus and the Apostles were correct!

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Remission of sins was purchased by Jesus Blood and I recieved this remission when I was immersed in Jesus Name IF Jesus and the Apostles were correct!

So, will you agree that the actual remission of sins and to personally experience that remission of sins are two very separate and distinct events which happen at two very separate and distinct times? Yes or No?

[Adino]

More Scripture to think about:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:10)

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2Corinthians 5:18-19)

Do these passages teach a finished reconciliation at Calvary in the eyes of God?

Do these passages teach that God has committed to us the job of spreading the Good News of this reconciliation?

[Adino]

Sad to announce that my vacation is over..... bummer.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on these issues. I have enjoyed our chat.

Steve, my Catholic friend, it was good to talk to you again.

It is always fun to press some buttons and take a little deeper look into the wonderful word of God.

God bless!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Adino

I see no reference to baptism in this passage. I do see John's consistent metaphorical use of the word 'water' as reference to the 'Spirit.'

He repeats the metaphor in the very next chapter (4) and again in chapter 7. I see no reason to discard its metaphorical use in chapter 3. This position holds that Christ is simply adding emphasis to the idea of spiritual rebirth which becomes the continued focus of the chapter.

Adino, I disagree. Here's what Christ said to Nicodemus on the subject,

John 3:2-8
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus said, unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus then asks how a man can be born again (thinking physical birth).
Jesus then says that a man (anthropos, an adult person) must be born of water AND (implying two elements) Spirit.
The reason is because that which is born naturally is purely natural, but that which is born of the Spirit is spiritual.
Then Christ tells Nicodemus not to be confused about being born again.
Then Christ alludes to the reality that the Spirit moves in a manner unseen in men's lives, yet it can be heard (tongues).

Just as natural birth breaks the water and leads to the first breath, so too does rebirth. In being "born again" one passes through the waters of baptism to take the first breath of the Spirit to new life.

Christ emphasized this again in Mark,

(Mark 16:16-17 KJV)
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

If Christians refuse to water baptize they are in rebellion to Christ's commands (Matthew 28:19). If a convert refuses to be baptized they are in rebellion to Christ's commands. Both those who refuse to baptize and those who refuse to be water baptized will die in the sin of rebellion.