The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38

[Sam]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

This is a great study of the verse.

You conclusion was actually taught by John Wesley in a manner..

He taught 3 differernt "phases" or types of grace that the Holy Spirit acts in our lives....

Prevenient Grace is that grace of the Holy Spirit calling, or wooing, us before we even know of his existance. This is the "tug" at our heart that leads to come to repentance. As was said, we can't even confess Jesus as Lord with out the Holy Spirit

Justifying Grace is the grace that causes God to justify, of save, us. It acts at the moment of salvation (which would be belief if you're a "one stepper", or baptism for a "two stepper"

Sactifying Grace sanctifiess, or perfects, us for his work. It gives us power over sin and and equates to "receiving the Holy Ghost". It calls us to be Holy people. It is the full power of of the Holy Ghost.

This third experience is important, and finalizes God's work of conversion, but is not the first instance of the Holy Ghost in our lives.

You summerize this well in your explanation. For those history buffs, Weslyan Theology was the basis for Pentecostal and Holiness teaching.

That's sorta the way I understand the Spirit's work in our lives.
1. Which you called Prevenient Grace is the Spirit drawing us to Jesus.
2. Justifying Grace is the moment we accept Jesus as Savior and pass over from sinner to saint or from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
3. Sanctifying grace is the lifelong work of the Holy Ghost in our lives from salvation to death or rapture (whichever comes first) as He grows us and develops us.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Justin

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

It seems like they didn't even know the Holy Ghost existed?

They were water baptized by John the Baptist. Therefore it is implied that they heard his message and responded by being baptized with John's baptism unto repentance. So I can't go as far as to say that their statement means that they didn't know if there was a Holy Ghost, but rather I'd argue that their statement indicates that they didn't know if the outpouring John spoke about was indeed among men. "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Clearly they were not speaking didactic factoid but rather experiential in the present tense.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

This is a great study of the verse.

You conclusion was actually taught by John Wesley in a manner..

He taught 3 differernt "phases" or types of grace that the Holy Spirit acts in our lives....

Prevenient Grace is that grace of the Holy Spirit calling, or wooing, us before we even know of his existance. This is the "tug" at our heart that leads to come to repentance. As was said, we can't even confess Jesus as Lord with out the Holy Spirit

Justifying Grace is the grace that causes God to justify, of save, us. It acts at the moment of salvation (which would be belief if you're a "one stepper", or baptism for a "two stepper"

Sactifying Grace sanctifiess, or perfects, us for his work. It gives us power over sin and and equates to "receiving the Holy Ghost". It calls us to be Holy people. It is the full power of of the Holy Ghost.

This third experience is important, and finalizes God's work of conversion, but is not the first instance of the Holy Ghost in our lives.

You summerize this well in your explanation. For those history buffs, Weslyan Theology was the basis for Pentecostal and Holiness teaching.

Thank you Bro. Snicker. Sadly most Pentecostals are ignorant of their theological heritage.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Aquila

They were water baptized by John the Baptist. Therefore it is implied that they heard his message and responded by being baptized with John's baptism unto repentance. So I can't go as far as to say that their statement means that they didn't know if there was a Holy Ghost, but rather I'd argue that their statement indicates that they didn't know if the outpouring John spoke about was indeed among men. "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Clearly they were not speaking didactic factoid but rather experiential in the present tense.

Actually, it could be that they were frustrated after hearing John preach about the Holy Ghost and/or that they hadn't heard that people were receiving the Holy Ghost as John had preached.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by bishoph

This (the bolded portion) could not be farther from the truth. No man can come to God except the Spirit draw him. To intimate that "3 steppers" only believe that the Holy Ghost does not show up or is not involved until the "third step" is a gross error.

In the above respect I guess we’re definitely in agreement. The Spirit draws a man, brings faith, and then convicts of sin.

Secondly your statement that "the Holy Ghost is present and abiding from the moment one comes to faith," is only partially correct. The Holy Ghost is present...he is present to lead and guide, to convict, to draw.....but he is not abiding until one has been filled with the spirit. And, when a person is filled with the spirit they will always speak with tongues.

I agree and disagree. I believe that the presence of the Holy Ghost isn’t enough to draw a man to Christ. There must be an abiding presence of the Spirit, abiding and drawing the individual through full NT experience.

I know the mantra that when a person is filled with the Spirit they will always speak in tongues, but I’m no longer convinced of that. I believe that some don’t speak with tongues because they don’t know what’s happening to them. For example during the Wesleyan revivals people were falling out and weeping with sobbing and groanings. The power of God was said to be tangible. We know that many reformers had very similar experiences (often called spiritual ecstasy) in pre-Reformation times. Had they had someone on their shoulder prompting them to “speak out” how can we not be certain that tongues as we know them wouldn’t have poured forth? Seeing how God greatly used these individuals historically I cannot deny the presence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost in their lives.

Pentecostalism has its own form of “religious” expectation that something appear the way we expect it too. I believe that God works in mysterious ways. While I’d agree with you that the “evidence” of the Holy Ghost is indeed speaking in tongues, I’d not deny that often something can be present without the evidence. Just because we don’t have evidence that something occurred, it doesn’t mean that it didn’t. It’s kind of like the exception makes the rule.

Another point I ponder is this. In John 7 we read…

John 7:38-39
{7:38} He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. {7:39} (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given;] because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Speaking in tongues isn’t necessarily the result of the Spirit being received, but rather it is the result of the abiding Spirit welling up and flowing out of the individual. When one is experiencing stammering lips or speaking in tongues it is the result of the indwelling Spirit welling up inside of them. It has to be present for this to happen. Those who are speaking in tongues are allowing the indwelling Spirit to overflow. Therefore I believe that the Spirit’s presence may indeed be a reality though the evidence is not yet seen, for they have yet to allow it to well up and overflow from them.

Can a person be led/drawn by the Spirit and not be filled....absolutely! Can people in non-Apostolic churches be filled with the "real" Holy Ghost....of course! Their being filled is not the question, their willingness to be led after they have been filled is the issue. Many people have started out following after God not knowing every aspect of his grace, and truth; but they followed his leading right into all truth. (The problem is that many after coming to the Apostolic church cease to grow/follow on to know the Lord....another subject altogether) I believe it was TD Jakes who said something like.....your denomination doesn't tell tell us who you are, it tells us what trith you stopped at. (I am paraphrasing big time but this was the gist of what he said)

You and I both agree that the Spirit will lead them into truth. But we disagree on that manifestation of that leading. Most OPs believe that these Trinitarian believers filled with the Holy Ghost will seek out OP churches and become “members”. I disagree. It’s a matter of being led into truth, not an organization, not a specific congregation. Many who have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost remain faithful to their traditional denominations. However, they often claim to believe the Trinity but personally see it in a manner more akin to Oneness. In addition their prayer life and spiritual life is far more enhanced and even advanced than those who have yet to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. They are often “prayer warriors” that their traditional church leans upon a great deal. So yes, they have been led into grace and truth…they’re just not rolling under our institutional banners. Remember…this is a spiritual kingdom. It’s not defined by organizational, denominational, or congregational lines. That’s all organized RELIGION. That’s not the Kingdom of God. You’ll note that within nearly all seven churches in the book of Revelation there was a faithful body admonished to continue on in their faith. The Kingdom is like this. For example within the Baptist church down the road there are those who have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, even with speaking in other tongues. However, they are often led into deeper things than the average congregant at their church might be. These are those who stand within that church walking in white.

It’s often argued that they have to change to a UPCI church or some other OP organizational church to be saved. Bunk on that. Not so. God has them as a light to that traditional denomination. Their presence is essential if that denomination will experience revival and greater spiritual blessing. We must pray for them. Some will say that it’s essential that they change to an OP church so that a OP preacher can re-baptize them and utter the Oneness “formula” over them at baptism. Friend, it doesn’t matter what a preacher mutters over a person when their baptized. The very idea is a Catholic innovation. Pay special attention to Paul’s own testimony, Ananias’ words to Paul were,

Acts 22:16
{22:16} And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Notice that Ananias didn’t indicate that he, himself, would utter the name of the Lord over Paul. But rather Paul was commanded to call upon the name of the Lord upon being baptized. The point here is this…baptism’s being effectual doesn’t hinge on what a preacher speaks over the one being baptized. The effectuality of water baptism is predicated upon the baptized individual calling upon the name of the Lord. This means 100 OP preachers could be screaming “I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins!!!”, but if the one being baptized isn’t calling on the name of the Lord no remission will take place. On the flip side, 100 Trinitarian preachers could be muttering, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit!”, but if the one being baptized IS calling on the name of the Lord remission will indeed take place. The element that makes baptism effectual is the repentant heart of the believer being baptized…not the “formula” spoken over them by some religionist.

Therefore, I conclude that there are many in Trinitarian churches who have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, are being led into deeper truth, indeed called upon the name of Jesus at their baptism, and are redeemed and indeed saved in spite of the man made traditions surrounding them. And on the flip side there are Oneness Pentecostals who have received the Holy Ghost, been led into deeper truth, however at baptism they trusted in the words of a preacher and failed to personally call on the name of the Lord to remit their sins. They stand with sins unremitted.

Our God doesn’t judge us according to formula or liturgy. Our God is a judge of the heart. Therefore I don’t believe that in order to be saved they have to become members of a church with a specific banner above it.

This is the Kingdom of God. Not the Kingdom of the UPCI, ALJC, or any other alphabet soup organization.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Actually, it could be that they were frustrated after hearing John preach about the Holy Ghost and/or that they hadn't heard that people were receiving the Holy Ghost as John had preached.

Um, that was what I said.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Um, that was what I said.

Guess I should read better!! LOL

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

...
I know the mantra that when a person is filled with the Spirit they will always speak in tongues, but I’m no longer convinced of that. ...
...
Speaking in tongues isn’t necessarily the result of the Spirit being received, but rather it is the result of the abiding Spirit welling up and flowing out of the individual. When one is experiencing stammering lips or speaking in tongues it is the result of the indwelling Spirit welling up inside of them. It has to be present for this to happen. Those who are speaking in tongues are allowing the indwelling Spirit to overflow. Therefore I believe that the Spirit’s presence may indeed be a reality though the evidence is not yet seen, for they have yet to allow it to well up and overflow from them.



You and I both agree that the Spirit will lead them into truth. But we disagree on that manifestation of that leading. Most OPs believe that these Trinitarian believers filled with the Holy Ghost will seek out OP churches and become “members”. I disagree. It’s a matter of being led into truth, not an organization, not a specific congregation. ...

1. On the Day of Pentecost they were first filled with the Spirit, then began to speak with tongues. Tongues/language manifested outwardly meant that the Spirit had already filled them. Tongues followed the Spirit's infilling. Tongues is one of the sign that "follows" believers.

Do tongues always follow the Spirit's filling? Did tongues follow Peter's filling in Acts 4:9 some time after Pentecost? Did tongues follow the filling of a whole roomful of people in Acts 4:31?

The traditional date for the conversion of Paul of Tarsus is January 25, AD 32. Three days later Ananias laid his hands upon him so that he could be "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Acts 9:17). Did Paul speak with tongues as hands were placed upon him three days after his conversion experience? We can't say either yes or no with certainty. We do know that when he wrote what we call 1 Corinthians (probably autumn AD 55) he said he spoke with tongues more than the whole Corinthian bunch (1 Cor 14:18) although I think he was exaggerating a little there. In Acts 13:8 while on the island of Cyprus (AD 47) it is recorded that Paul was "filled with the Holy Ghost" as he cursed someone. Did he speak with tongues then?

2. As far as the Spirit leading into truth. I agree with what you've said. We often take that to mean that if a person really has the Holy Spirit that person will come into Oneness Pentecost, get baptized in Jesus name etc. I know many, many people who have been baptized in the Spirit and who have spoken with tongues years ago that have not come into Oneness Pentecost. They are still Roman Catholic, Assembly of God, etc. What does that mean?

Well, it could mean that they do not have the REAL Holy Ghost. I doubt that.
It could mean that the Holy Spirit has been trying to get them to a Oneness Pentecostal church for years but they have been resisting Him and gritting their teeth and tenaciously clinging to their denominational doctrine. I doubt that also. I think their walk with God shows that not to be true. A third explanation could be that "truth" is not our little narrow interpretation and that they are indeed walking with God in truth whether they agree with us and dot every "i" and cross every "t" the way we think they should. GASP, could that be?

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Yes, and not only Trinitarians... I've heard it preached (and still have the tapes somewhere) that a lot of liberal OPs didn't get the real Holy Ghost. I prayed through in a liberal OP church. The statement really disturbed me.

Come on....we all KNOW that God read the sign in front of the church. He sees you seeking, hears you praying, and then looks at the sign...

If it says UPC or Apostolic - BAM here's the Holy ghost...

If it says AOG, or worse, baptist or methodist or something else....too bad....no HG for you!!

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Thank you Bro. Snicker. Sadly most Pentecostals are ignorant of their theological heritage.

10 years as a Methodist bible study teacher prior to becoming pentecostal paid off!

My mission is now to convince people that we're not as different as we think, and to get them to take God out of that little box they keep putting him in. we could do so much more Kingdom work if we didnt spend so much time trying to save the already saved!!!