The Biblical response to ACTS 2:38

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Has anyone on the Forum ever known of a Oneness Church or a Oneness Preacher requiring someone from a Trinitarian background to go to the altar and seek for the Holy Ghost, denying that the Holy Ghost that they supposedly received in a Trinity church wasn't the real thing?

Ummm....that would be me!!

I guess you would call me a "liberal pentecostal" (how's that for an oxymoron!), but my wife's church (and mine now) is fairly conservative. My pastor told me that he was sure God had spoken to me before, but I COULD NOT have actually gotten THE Holy Ghost.

I have a real issue with that

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Justin

Interesting. One follow up question:

Luke: 7

18John's disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19he sent them to the Lord to ask, "Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?"
20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' "

21At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[b] are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 23Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

Shouldn't John's disciples have known about the Holy Ghost in Acts 19, seeing that Matthew 3 was the introduction of John's message as John spoke specifically of the Holy Ghost?

In other words, John's own disciples didn't really listen to or understand their masters message regarding the Holy Ghost.

I don’t believe that the issue was that they didn’t know about the Holy Ghost. I believe the issue was that they didn’t know that the Holy Ghost spoken of by John the Baptist had been subsequently poured out. They were ignorant of Christ. Hence their answer to Paul, “John’s baptism.”

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

Ummm....that would be me!!

I guess you would call me a "liberal pentecostal" (how's that for an oxymoron!), but my wife's church (and mine now) is fairly conservative. My pastor told me that he was sure God had spoken to me before, but I COULD NOT have actually gotten THE Holy Ghost.

I have a real issue with that

I knew a man and He is a real-Ultra Con,and I'm not sure he is alive or not now ,well anyways this brother was from a Trinity Holiness Church background before He was Oneness,this brother went to a campmeeting and somebody got up and said that Trintarians speaking in tongues was not of God,or something to that effect,anyways this Elder found the one who made that statement,he said that the same Holy Ghost I got when I was Trinity led to One God and Jesus Name baptism.

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's look at Acts 19:1-6 closely...


The problem with the three-step notion is that it disregards the Holy Ghost's work from start to finish. They see the Holy Ghost as being strictly a factor in the third step of their three step liturgy in approaching the Lord. The truth is, the Holy Ghost is present and abiding from the moment one comes to faith in Christ Jesus, else they could never believe with a faith that pleases the Lord. Christianity isn't a three step recipe...it's a journey into greater and greater Christ likeness from child like faith to empowered faithfulness and obedience.

This is a great study of the verse.

You conclusion was actually taught by John Wesley in a manner..

He taught 3 differernt "phases" or types of grace that the Holy Spirit acts in our lives....

Prevenient Grace is that grace of the Holy Spirit calling, or wooing, us before we even know of his existance. This is the "tug" at our heart that leads to come to repentance. As was said, we can't even confess Jesus as Lord with out the Holy Spirit

Justifying Grace is the grace that causes God to justify, of save, us. It acts at the moment of salvation (which would be belief if you're a "one stepper", or baptism for a "two stepper"

Sactifying Grace sanctifiess, or perfects, us for his work. It gives us power over sin and and equates to "receiving the Holy Ghost". It calls us to be Holy people. It is the full power of of the Holy Ghost.

This third experience is important, and finalizes God's work of conversion, but is not the first instance of the Holy Ghost in our lives.

You summerize this well in your explanation. For those history buffs, Weslyan Theology was the basis for Pentecostal and Holiness teaching.

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's look at Acts 19:1-6 closely...

The problem with the three-step notion is that it disregards the Holy Ghost's work from start to finish. They see the Holy Ghost as being strictly a factor in the third step of their three step liturgy in approaching the Lord. The truth is, the Holy Ghost is present and abiding from the moment one comes to faith in Christ Jesus, else they could never believe with a faith that pleases the Lord. Christianity isn't a three step recipe...it's a journey into greater and greater Christ likeness from child like faith to empowered faithfulness and obedience.

This (the bolded portion) could not be farther from the truth. No man can come to God except the Spirit draw him. To intimate that "3 steppers" only believe that the Holy Ghost does not show up or is not involved until the "third step" is a gross error.

Secondly your statement that "the Holy Ghost is present and abiding from the moment one comes to faith," is only partially correct. The Holy Ghost is present...he is present to lead and guide, to convict, to draw.....but he is not abiding until one has been filled with the spirit. And, when a person is filled with the spirit they will always speak with tongues.

Can a person be led/drawn by the Spirit and not be filled....absolutely! Can people in non-Apostolic churches be filled with the "real" Holy Ghost....of course! Their being filled is not the question, their willingness to be led after they have been filled is the issue. Many people have started out following after God not knowing every aspect of his grace, and truth; but they followed his leading right into all truth. (The problem is that many after coming to the Apostolic church cease to grow/follow on to know the Lord....another subject altogether) I believe it was TD Jakes who said something like.....your denomination doesn't tell tell us who you are, it tells us what trith you stopped at. (I am paraphrasing big time but this was the gist of what he said)

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Has anyone on the Forum ever known of a Oneness Church or a Oneness Preacher requiring someone from a Trinitarian background to go to the altar and seek for the Holy Ghost, denying that the Holy Ghost that they supposedly received in a Trinity church wasn't the real thing?

It would seem to me that if God gave them the Holy Ghost, (and I believe He does), then why should we make ourselves judges and choose to not fellowship someone that God loved enough to give them His Spirit.

Just asking, Just "thinkin."

Been Thinkin

Yes, and not only Trinitarians... I've heard it preached (and still have the tapes somewhere) that a lot of liberal OPs didn't get the real Holy Ghost. I prayed through in a liberal OP church. The statement really disturbed me.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by snicker1986

Ummm....that would be me!!

I guess you would call me a "liberal pentecostal" (how's that for an oxymoron!), but my wife's church (and mine now) is fairly conservative. My pastor told me that he was sure God had spoken to me before, but I COULD NOT have actually gotten THE Holy Ghost.

I have a real issue with that

If Cornelius and his friends were saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism, why couldn't anyone else be?

There is no command from Peter to Cornelius to seek for the REAL Holy Ghost after his baptism in water.

Why can't we just accept the plain teaching of Scripture that sin is forgiven/remitted by faith like Peter told Cornelius in Acts 10:43 and rejoice when people are baptized in the Spirit separate from and apart from water baptism?

[missourimary]

The statement I have heard, Sam, is that if these people aren't in THE Truth, if, for instance, they prayed through in a charismatic church, they must not have had a real experience with the real God, because they don't know Who He is.

I've heard the same excuse given as why we can't go to a Trinitarian service or attend a Trinitarian (or liberal OP) church.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by bishoph

This (the bolded portion) could not be farther from the truth. No man can come to God except the Spirit draw him. To intimate that "3 steppers" only believe that the Holy Ghost does not show up or is not involved until the "third step" is a gross error.

Secondly your statement that "the Holy Ghost is present and abiding from the moment one comes to faith," is only partially correct. The Holy Ghost is present...he is present to lead and guide, to convict, to draw.....but he is not abiding until one has been filled with the spirit. And, when a person is filled with the spirit they will always speak with tongues.

Can a person be led/drawn by the Spirit and not be filled....absolutely! Can people in non-Apostolic churches be filled with the "real" Holy Ghost....of course! Their being filled is not the question, their willingness to be led after they have been filled is the issue. Many people have started out following after God not knowing every aspect of his grace, and truth; but they followed his leading right into all truth. (The problem is that many after coming to the Apostolic church cease to grow/follow on to know the Lord....another subject altogether) I believe it was TD Jakes who said something like.....your denomination doesn't tell tell us who you are, it tells us what trith you stopped at. (I am paraphrasing big time but this was the gist of what he said)

don't hold him back now... he likes recreating what people believe! LOL!

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don’t believe that the issue was that they didn’t know about the Holy Ghost. I believe the issue was that they didn’t know that the Holy Ghost spoken of by John the Baptist had been subsequently poured out. They were ignorant of Christ. Hence their answer to Paul, “John’s baptism.”

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

It seems like they didn't even know the Holy Ghost existed?