Read Segraves on "letting down hair"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

You guys are totally missing the big picture... the head of man in CHRIST!!!! lol.... Suggesting a woman has authority in the spirit realm that a man doesn't have is a far stretch, I agree with that. That language needs to be calibrated as well... but to say that a woman who is obedient and submissive has authority in the spirit realm that men or women who are not obedient and submissive do not have, is absolutely true.

That was not the bigger picture of what LS said.

LS did not say "obedient and submissive"..he directly, not indirectly but directly related the angelic protection FOR THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY to women with uncut hair

I have always known, in the Spirit, that in our churches and in our homes where our women did not cut their hair that there was some kind of angelic power and protection that was there continuously, but I didn't know until this year, until I went to the Greek and dug it out.

I didn't know how really accurate I was. I've always felt it in the Spirit, but now I can prove it biblically, biblically, that in churches where our women do not cut their hair. It's not the long and short of it, ladies. It is "uncut". Don't tell me you have long hair and then keep trimming the ends so that it doesn't get any longer than where it is now. That's not the issue. The issue is not long or short. The issue is "uncut" because in some cultures women's hair, it does not grow long. So, it's not long or short. That's not the issue. The issue is "uncut".

I have known and now can prove it, spiritually from the Bible, that in our churches, in our homes, where our women, our ladies do not cut their hair there is a kind of angelic protection that flows out from them for the whole Christian community.

It flows OUT FROM THEM! Good grief.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

You guys are totally missing the big picture... the head of man in CHRIST!!!! lol.... Suggesting a woman has authority in the spirit realm that a man doesn't have is a far stretch, I agree with that. That language needs to be calibrated as well... but to say that a woman who is obedient and submissive has authority in the spirit realm that men or women who are not obedient and submissive do not have, is absolutely true.

We aren't missing the big picture. We are focusing on the stretch that is killing and clouding the picture. It's so muddy, it's paralyzing!

[MissBrattified]

Prax, can you put the quotes in quotes?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That was not the bigger picture of what LS said.

LS did not say "obedient and submissive"..he directly, not indirectly but directly related the angelic protection FOR THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY to women with uncut hair

I have always known, in the Spirit, that in our churches and in our homes where our women did not cut their hair that there was some kind of angelic power and protection that was there continuously, but I didn't know until this year, until I went to the Greek and dug it out.

I didn't know how really accurate I was. I've always felt it in the Spirit, but now I can prove it biblically, biblically, that in churches where our women do not cut their hair. It's not the long and short of it, ladies. It is "uncut". Don't tell me you have long hair and then keep trimming the ends so that it doesn't get any longer than where it is now. That's not the issue. The issue is not long or short. The issue is "uncut" because in some cultures women's hair, it does not grow long. So, it's not long or short. That's not the issue. The issue is "uncut".

I have known and now can prove it, spiritually from the Bible, that in our churches, in our homes, where our women, our ladies do not cut their hair there is a kind of angelic protection that flows out from them for the whole Christian community.

It flows OUT FROM THEM! Good grief.

Prax,
This is where the message is a subtle deception. I'm not saying LS is doing this on purpose, but it is a deception. Perhaps, "gross error" would be a better word.

LS starts out with the same view as DKB and DS when he says, "The word "power" means, "authority, ability, authority, rule"."

THEN, he goes off on a rabbit trail with the angels. That actually makes him start out using the definition for "exousia", but ends up with "dunamis".

This is where the problem is coming into play. They need to nip this in the bud and lock it down.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Why the obsessive focus on women only? Don't you think it's probably more of a blatant attempt to give women a deeper reason for uncut hair than anything else? Tell a woman scripture says something that isn't crystal clear but is POSSIBLE is one thing--she may or may not go with the safest bet. However, if you appeal to her desire to please God and protect those she loves? She's not going to even question it, because you've not only given her a purpose, but you've instilled fear.

It's manipulation, PURE AND SIMPLE. If it weren't, we would hear just as many sermons about men and their short hair.

And don't tell me that LS thinks men have the same power; he said in one of his sermons that he has been talking to pastors about a problem in the church, a problem that apparently the godly pastor couldn't solve. In would walk his wife with her uncut hair and offer the necessary wisdom, where her husband's failed.

Two things:

1. Men don't have the same power in their short hair as women do in their long hair--THAT message is clearly relayed.

2. Men are made out to be insignificant and inferior in regard to spiritual matters.

The LANGUAGE? The language is clearly representing what LS (and others) believe. Unfortunately for their defenders. LOL!!!! It isn't the LANGUAGE that needs to change; it's the belief system.

I understand your concern... I would agree that uncut hair doesn't give a woman spiritual wisdom that she cannot obtain through her own spirituality through obedience and submission to God. A woman spiritual woman, obedient and submitted to God, may indeed have wisdom into matters that her husband cannot or hasn't received an answer for. A word of wisdom can flow through anyone whom God chooses, but doesn't flow through everyone all the time. God can deal with a godly woman in wisdom at times He is not dealing directly with the husband. It's not directly connected with uncut hair, but it is directly connected with spiritual and submission... thus a pastor's wife who has uncut hair (i.e. obedient and submitted) may indeed receive knowledge or wisdom from God that her husband isn't privy to in the spirit. But this CAN and DOES work the other way too... sometimes, more often than not probably, God will reveal things to the husband that he doesn't reveal to the wife. It's a God thing either way.

I can see how some would have a problem with the way it is presented, but in reality, if you parse LS's language here, it is not as "unscriptural" as some would have us believe. I see what you're saying regarding manipulation, but I do not think that is the case at all. I think encouraging "the flock" to be obedient and submitted to the instructions of 1 Cor 11 regarding hair, indeed does carry weight in the spirit realm, as much as submission to any other instruction in scripture does. For apostle Paul to spend a half chapter in the Bible dealing with authority, submittedness, and the God-ordained symbol of that submittedness, certainly warrants a single sermon all to itself devoted to this issue.

You can say that Paul is being manipulative by framing his instructions regarding hair in issues of submittedness, authority, angels, God, Christ, man, flow etc... but it's the way God ordained it to be framed. Paul didn't give undue emphasis regarding hair, for at least 5 times in 1 Cor he instructs that this epistle is for "all the churches". For LS or anyone else to go to "all the churches" and teach the principles and application of 1 Cor 11 is NOT unwarranted, and is absolutlely appropriate. JMHO....

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That was not the bigger picture of what LS said.

LS did not say "obedient and submissive"..he directly, not indirectly but directly related the angelic protection FOR THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY to women with uncut hair

I have always known, in the Spirit, that in our churches and in our homes where our women did not cut their hair that there was some kind of angelic power and protection that was there continuously, but I didn't know until this year, until I went to the Greek and dug it out.

I didn't know how really accurate I was. I've always felt it in the Spirit, but now I can prove it biblically, biblically, that in churches where our women do not cut their hair. It's not the long and short of it, ladies. It is "uncut". Don't tell me you have long hair and then keep trimming the ends so that it doesn't get any longer than where it is now. That's not the issue. The issue is not long or short. The issue is "uncut" because in some cultures women's hair, it does not grow long. So, it's not long or short. That's not the issue. The issue is "uncut".

I have known and now can prove it, spiritually from the Bible, that in our churches, in our homes, where our women, our ladies do not cut their hair there is a kind of angelic protection that flows out from them for the whole Christian community.

It flows OUT FROM THEM! Good grief.

Any place you hear or read or see LS say "uncut hair", just replace it with "obedience and submission", or "obedient and submissive", and see if you would then agree with his point? The fact is, that "uncut hair" is an issue of "obedience and submission", and this is the whole point LS is driving at. You cannot claim to be totally "obedient and submitted" without subscribing to the instructions of 1 Cor 11. Obedience and submission IS the issue LS is dealing with, and other parts of his message enumerate it as such directly conntected with uncut hair. Disregarding this part of the connection obscures the points he is trying to make!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I understand your concern... I would agree that uncut hair doesn't give a woman spiritual wisdom that she cannot obtain through her own spirituality through obedience and submission to God. A woman spiritual woman, obedient and submitted to God, may indeed have wisdom into matters that her husband cannot or hasn't received an answer for. A word of wisdom can flow through anyone whom God chooses, but doesn't flow through everyone all the time. God can deal with a godly woman in wisdom at times He is not dealing directly with the husband. It's not directly connected with uncut hair, but it is directly connected with spiritual and submission... thus a pastor's wife who has uncut hair (i.e. obedient and submitted) may indeed receive knowledge or wisdom from God that her husband isn't privy to in the spirit. But this CAN and DOES work the other way too... sometimes, more often than not probably, God will reveal things to the husband that he doesn't reveal to the wife. It's a God thing either way.

I can see how some would have a problem with the way it is presented, but in reality, if you parse LS's language here, it is not as "unscriptural" as some would have us believe. I see what you're saying regarding manipulation, but I do not think that is the case at all. I think encouraging "the flock" to be obedient and submitted to the instructions of 1 Cor 11 regarding hair, indeed does carry weight in the spirit realm, as much as submission to any other instruction in scripture does. For apostle Paul to spend a half chapter in the Bible dealing with authority, submittedness, and the God-ordained symbol of that submittedness, certainly warrants a single sermon all to itself devoted to this issue.

You can say that Paul is being manipulative by framing his instructions regarding hair in issues of submittedness, authority, angels, God, Christ, man, flow etc... but it's the way God ordained it to be framed. Paul didn't give undue emphasis regarding hair, for at least 5 times in 1 Cor he instructs that this epistle is for "all the churches". For LS or anyone else to go to "all the churches" and teach the principles and application of 1 Cor 11 is NOT unwarranted, and is absolutlely appropriate. JMHO....

Yes, but what is being overlooked is that Paul speaks to the men about having short hair - YET - we keep focusing on that woman's long, uncut hair. It's just not adding up for equality in the passage or for the church members that LS is preaching to. This would be the main point of the discussion and the overall concern for what is being propagated.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Any place you hear or read or see LS say "uncut hair", just replace it with "obedience and submission", or "obedient and submissive", and see if you would then agree with his point? The fact is, that "uncut hair" is an issue of "obedience and submission", and this is the whole point LS is driving at. You cannot claim to be totally "obedient and submitted" without subscribing to the instructions of 1 Cor 11. Obedience and submission IS the issue LS is dealing with, and other parts of his message enumerate it as such directly conntected with uncut hair. Disregarding this part of the connection obscures the points he is trying to make!

"To wear long hair as part of one's attire - 'to have long hair, to appear with long hair, to wear long hair.' gunh\ de\ e)a\n koma=| do/ca au)th=| e)stin 'if a women wears long hair, it is a pride for her' 1 Co 11:15. In a number of languages it may be necessary to translate koma/w as 'to let one's hair grow long' or 'not to cut one's hair.'" (from Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domain. Copyright (c) 1988 United Bible Societies, New York. Used by permission.)

I don't understand and no one has ever answered this question. I've been asking since FCF! lol

WHY would it be necessary, in a number of languages, to say, "not to cut one's hair." WHY would it ever be necessary to go outside of the Greek? I don't understand what that means.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I understand your concern... I would agree that uncut hair doesn't give a woman spiritual wisdom that she cannot obtain through her own spirituality through obedience and submission to God. A woman spiritual woman, obedient and submitted to God, may indeed have wisdom into matters that her husband cannot or hasn't received an answer for. A word of wisdom can flow through anyone whom God chooses, but doesn't flow through everyone all the time. God can deal with a godly woman in wisdom at times He is not dealing directly with the husband. It's not directly connected with uncut hair, but it is directly connected with spiritual and submission... thus a pastor's wife who has uncut hair (i.e. obedient and submitted) may indeed receive knowledge or wisdom from God that her husband isn't privy to in the spirit. But this CAN and DOES work the other way too... sometimes, more often than not probably, God will reveal things to the husband that he doesn't reveal to the wife. It's a God thing either way.

I can see how some would have a problem with the way it is presented, but in reality, if you parse LS's language here, it is not as "unscriptural" as some would have us believe. I see what you're saying regarding manipulation, but I do not think that is the case at all. I think encouraging "the flock" to be obedient and submitted to the instructions of 1 Cor 11 regarding hair, indeed does carry weight in the spirit realm, as much as submission to any other instruction in scripture does. For apostle Paul to spend a half chapter in the Bible dealing with authority, submittedness, and the God-ordained symbol of that submittedness, certainly warrants a single sermon all to itself devoted to this issue.

I think you know LS is out of line. Granted, maybe some of the opposition has been over the top. But as a woman, if I dwell on what he has said in multiple sermons, it really just makes me mad, and I find myself having to bite my tongue. I have daughters to be concerned about--it isn't just about me. I want them to follow the Word out of obedience, but I don't want people placing extraneous "revelations" on them that cause them to live for God out of fear instead of faith. That really is what is being said here--that in churches or homes where a woman cuts her hair, her loved ones lose the protection of God, and her church loses anointing. Do you really believe that?

You can say that Paul is being manipulative by framing his instructions regarding hair in issues of submittedness, authority, angels, God, Christ, man, flow etc... but it's the way God ordained it to be framed. Paul didn't give undue emphasis regarding hair, for at least 5 times in 1 Cor he instructs that this epistle is for "all the churches". For LS or anyone else to go to "all the churches" and teach the principles and application of 1 Cor 11 is NOT unwarranted, and is absolutlely appropriate. JMHO....

I absolutely agree that I Corinthians 11 is relevant for today's church and should be taught. As a Christian woman, I not only want to obey God's Word, but I also want to make sure I understand it correctly so I can pass it on to my children. My husband and I made up our minds years ago that we would pass on the pure, unadulterated truth of the Word. That not only means you don't mince words when scripture is clear on something, but it ALSO means you don't add to the Word when it isn't clear and put your own spin on it.

Furthermore, the underlying principles of I Corinthians have to do with authority, submission and propriety; whether a woman has long, uncut hair, or long hair in length that may be trimmed seems to be a trivial component. That alone has sparked years of debate among Apostolics, including respected ministers. The magic hair thing is just serving to derail an old argument. Sadly, it's not just an argument, but it can have spiritual and psychological effects, which is why it needs to be stopped completely. Bro. Segraves capably addressed those potential negative effects in his paper.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Any place you hear or read or see LS say "uncut hair", just replace it with "obedience and submission", or "obedient and submissive", and see if you would then agree with his point? The fact is, that "uncut hair" is an issue of "obedience and submission", and this is the whole point LS is driving at. You cannot claim to be totally "obedient and submitted" without subscribing to the instructions of 1 Cor 11. Obedience and submission IS the issue LS is dealing with, and other parts of his message enumerate it as such directly conntected with uncut hair. Disregarding this part of the connection obscures the points he is trying to make!

He associates the angelic protection with the HAIR not "her obedience":..if that was the case why not cover more ground like not committing adultery, not lying, not gossiping? Sure we got churches full of uncut hair and bobby pins flying everywhere but that does not make them obedient! Yet that is what LS isolates as the REASON why they have angelic protection AND LS says it "flows OUT from THEM"...from the women! Not from God, it flows OUT from the woman...

That we are protected not because WE (men) are obedient but because a woman has uncut hair.