Is it murder to put a sword through the belly of a child? How about an elderly person who is helpless? What about a woman who is pregnant?
Your explanation is full of holes (maybes, what ifs, might be's), not to mention a human being has always been a human being.
Today, there are hostile Nations on Earth that declare the Christian Faith a False Doctrine. The Country of Iran has leadership that considers Israel an all out threat to Planet Earth and would like to blow them off the map. Would a mass genocide of this Nation be accepted today? The Philistines still live next door to the Jews. Why not Nuke them?
Why shouldn't we have exterminated the Germans? Allow the Jews to go into this Country that attempted to genocide them.
You make it sound like it was different back then. The World has always been hostile. The theories you present are what all do to protect a false idea. It's "Out of Sight, Out of Mind". It's not today, so it's easy to explain it away with notions that are not only inhumane, but downright evil.
Bring genocide into your backyard, then judge. Look into the faces of these dead people, or watch the slaughter take place, then give us your theory.
Also, the full message to Mankind was not finished in Word when Jesus came. The New Testament hadn't even been written yet.
If God commands a nation to war, sparing none, through a prophet it isn't sin. God alone has the authority to command such a thing. However, rest easy. God isn't dealing with a "nation" today. God is dealing with a "church", a body of called out believers, scattered among all nations. God has now called us to partake in Christ's Messianich mission by preaching the Gospel... even if it should cause us our lives and we die as Christ died for us. Our mission is to bring Christ's peace to the peoples of all nations.
I believe that God’s Word clearly explains that there is a firmament separating the waters from below from the waters which are above. I know that the ancients envisioned this is a rudimentary way. However, even though we know more about this “firmament” (atmostphere) today it is still a barrier between earth and the debris of space. We also know that water in the form of ice is the most abundant element in the known universe. We see immense interstellar clouds 10,000 times larger than our Sun that are full of frozen water vapor.
So not only do we know that we have an atmospheric barrier in the sky above our world that protects us from debris from outer space (a firmament), we also know that beyond this atmosphere there is a universe full of interstellar clouds containing immeasurable tons of frozen water vapor (i.e. waters above the firmament).
The most abundant material in the universe is simple elemental hydrogen. That's an "H" without the "2O." Comparatively, there isn't that much water. On the other hand, there's so much of everything that we still do have a large volume of water in space. But it never interacts with our atmosphere in any fashion like a "watery abyss" would against a solid barrier. It exists mostly as ice in the regions surrounding the stars but not close enough to become liquid.
There is a great deal of water and ice in space - see the Oort Cloud. But the "debris of space" that our atmosphere protects us from is almost entirely composed of radiant energies from the sun. There is no watery "Abyss" that our world exists within. The Tiamat monsters of old should be seen as allegorical depictions of chaos and disorder.
Water does not appreciably interact with our atmosphere - and when it does, it passes right on into the planet's biosphere, thus showing that there isn't really any firmament. An estimated 1,000 to 10,000 tons of dust and meteor debris lands on the earth's surface every day. How much of this is water is unknown - but most of this debris is the residue from passing comets which have large amounts of water ice.
What does the phrase "the windows" refer to - either in "the heavens" or "in the firmament?" The ancients clearly understood a different cosmology then the one that we have found to actually exist.
Also, doesn't this present tone of your contradict with your earlier dismissals of using "modern science" to understand the Genesis account?
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Originally Posted by Aquila
While the physics are a bit different from the concept found in the ancient cosmology there is indeed a literal firmament and there is indeed literal water above the firmament.
Next question…
P.S.
As for the firmament not being “solid”… try flying a space craft into our atmosphere without any regard to trajectory at a high rate of speed. See if it doesn’t burst into flame and fall to bits as it tries to penetrate the firmament. Come in at an angle and see if your ship will not “skip” across the firmament like rocks across the surface of a pond as your craft is torn to pieces by the friction caused when the firmament is opposing you. Fast moving objects from space with little density often hit the firmament and burst as though they hit a brick wall.
We understand friction in a gas medium. That is what you are describing. The ancients had the idea that the firmament was a solid barrier holding back a watery abyss. There is no literal solid barrier and no watery abyss.
The "barrier" we do have isn't really a barrier at all but rather something of a filter.
If God commands a nation to war, sparing none, through a prophet it isn't sin. God alone has the authority to command such a thing. However, rest easy. God isn't dealing with a "nation" today. God is dealing with a "church", a body of called out believers, scattered among all nations. God has now called us to partake in Christ's Messianich mission by preaching the Gospel... even if it should cause us our lives and we die as Christ died for us. Our mission is to bring Christ's peace to the peoples of all nations.
Context is key.
We have Prophets today. What if "God tells them" a War is the answer?
You say, God alone has that authority, and that He (God) gave this man the "Green Light" to genocide a Nation.
First, we have no way of proving Samuel actually heard God say this. We only trust an ancient writing that declares this, just like Noah and the Ark.
Now that these ancient writings are under the spotlight of Truth, History, and our own experiences, we find many problems which present the past as possibly being misled or exaggerated.
Like I said, if the genocide was in your backyard and you beheld that absolute murder and slaughter of these helpless people, you may question whether a man heard from God or not.
You still left most of my presented problems on past post's, alone.
It's easy to say things; it's another thing to live them.
We have Prophets today. What if "God tells them" a War is the answer?
You say, God alone has that authority, and that He (God) gave this man the "Green Light" to genocide a Nation.
First, we have no way of proving Samuel actually heard God say this. We only trust an ancient writing that declares this, just like Noah and the Ark.
Now that these ancient writings are under the spotlight of Truth, History, and our own experiences, we find many problems which present the past as possibly being misled or exaggerated.
Like I said, if the genocide was in your backyard and you beheld that absolute murder and slaughter of these helpless people, you may question whether a man heard from God or not.
You still left most of my presented problems on past post's, alone.
It's easy to say things; it's another thing to live them.
Yeah, but back in those days, people knew how to tell fake prophets from real ones, so they knew whose commands they should obey. Ya see.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Yeah, it's because it was so long ago, ya see. That long ago, people just knew. Had to! Otherwise, God wouldn't expect everyone to know who were really His prophets and who weren't. If you lived back then, and obeyed some prophet of Baal or something, you were in big trouble. Obey Moses (e.g., kill the Midianite males, babies and all, and keep the little girls, like he said), and you're fine.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Yeah, it's because it was so long ago, ya see. That long ago, people just knew. Had to! Otherwise, God wouldn't expect everyone to know who were really His prophets and who weren't. If you lived back then, and obeyed some prophet of Baal or something, you were in big trouble. Obey Moses (e.g., kill the Midianite males, babies and all, and keep the little girls, like he said), and you're fine.
The most abundant material in the universe is simple elemental hydrogen. That's an "H" without the "2O." Comparatively, there isn't that much water. On the other hand, there's so much of everything that we still do have a large volume of water in space. But it never interacts with our atmosphere in any fashion like a "watery abyss" would against a solid barrier. It exists mostly as ice in the regions surrounding the stars but not close enough to become liquid.
There is a great deal of water and ice in space - see the Oort Cloud. But the "debris of space" that our atmosphere protects us from is almost entirely composed of radiant energies from the sun. There is no watery "Abyss" that our world exists within. The Tiamat monsters of old should be seen as allegorical depictions of chaos and disorder.
Water does not appreciably interact with our atmosphere - and when it does, it passes right on into the planet's biosphere, thus showing that there isn't really any firmament. An estimated 1,000 to 10,000 tons of dust and meteor debris lands on the earth's surface every day. How much of this is water is unknown - but most of this debris is the residue from passing comets which have large amounts of water ice.
What does the phrase "the windows" refer to - either in "the heavens" or "in the firmament?" The ancients clearly understood a different cosmology then the one that we have found to actually exist.
Also, doesn't this present tone of your contradict with your earlier dismissals of using "modern science" to understand the Genesis account?
We understand friction in a gas medium. That is what you are describing. The ancients had the idea that the firmament was a solid barrier holding back a watery abyss. There is no literal solid barrier and no watery abyss.
The "barrier" we do have isn't really a barrier at all but rather something of a filter.
The point is that while the ancients didn't understand everything God was revealing to them in his Word... the Word doesn't contradict what we have found cosmologically. We can argue that the ancients believed this or believed that... all that shows is that their INTERPRETATION was wrong. The Word itself appears to support what has been found.
There is a barrier that protects our world - Firmament
There is water above the firmament - Interstellar Clouds
We have Prophets today. What if "God tells them" a War is the answer?
That question was answered in my previous post. The nation of Israel broke the covenant and God has now offered a New Covenant that is opened to all peoples, not just a nation. Today under the New Covenant God isn’t dealing with a geopolitical “nation”, God is dealing with a called out people, a church, comprised of all nations. We are called to be a kingdom of peace wherein God alone is King. We exemplify the Messianic message to the world; our mission isn’t to advance a nation or national agenda. If a “prophet” were to rise and tell a President to “go to war” by some oracle of God we’d know he was a false prophet because that isn’t the covenantal paradigm that God is working from today.
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You say, God alone has that authority, and that He (God) gave this man the "Green Light" to genocide a Nation.
Yes, all things belong to God and God may do with them as he so chooses. Thank him that he’s chosen to operate according to the New Covenant.
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First, we have no way of proving Samuel actually heard God say this. We only trust an ancient writing that declares this, just like Noah and the Ark.
We have no way of knowing if there ever really was a Samuel. The entire Bible could be a mythical tale of morals and outdated anecdotes for all we “know”. So if it’s so important that we don’t know if Samuel actually heard God as the Word says… why believe ANY of it? Why not “live it up”?
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Now that these ancient writings are under the spotlight of Truth, History, and our own experiences, we find many problems which present the past as possibly being misled or exaggerated.
If you’re right I know that it’s impossible for one to rise from the dead… so who needs Jesus? Christianity becomes the biggest FRAUD on earth. Why are you wasting your precious time on a Christian forum? If the Bible can’t be believed that means one is a fool for believing that Jesus rose from the dead. It becomes highly dishonest and unethical to be a “Christian”. It would be more honest and ethical to be seeking the pleasures that our world has to offer and being totally open about it. It makes the man on the bar stool getting his buzz after work on a Friday night arguing that there is no proof of God far more honest and respectable than being a Pastor wherein you perpetuate mythical stories and extort money from people.
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Like I said, if the genocide was in your backyard and you beheld that absolute murder and slaughter of these helpless people, you may question whether a man heard from God or not.
I was military. I’ve seen my share of this world’s horror. I look at it like this… first God was dealing with a nation, second God originally fought there battles for them until they drifted from him and were told to fight their battles on their own, thirdly if a human leader can see a necessity for war… certainly God could.
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You still left most of my presented problems on past post's, alone.
I think you’re not READING. For example the very first question you presented in this post was previously answered by implication. Did you even read my post?
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It's easy to say things; it's another thing to live them.
I agree. Have you ever killed a man NotForSale? Do you know what it’s like? Do you know what it’s like to think, “That wasn’t too bad.”, after your first kill? This is a vile, fallen, and sinful world. God used extreme measures because sadly all too often they are necessary. Think of WWII. We dropped the bomb on Japan and killed multiplied thousands of civilians. Japan surrendered unconditionally saving multiplied thousands of American lives and perhaps even our freedom. Was it terrible? Yes. Did it feel good? No. Was it necessary? Yes. Long term more lives were saved than were lost. I know many get squeamish at the idea of God demanding entire nations be killed. However, consider the thousands of years of blood shed between the Jews and the Arabs. Hypothetically how many lives would have been saved down through the ages had Israel wiped out the Ishmaelits a couple thousand years before Christ?
Sometimes the unthinkable is the most humane thing to do when faced with no win situations on this fallen world.
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