Quote:
Originally Posted by notofworks
I think Mike's post really illustrates the "other side" very well. If tongues really is a necessary element to salvation and IF God withholds the gift of the Holy Spirit until sin is eliminated from one's life, then clearly the position Mike supports is a system that requires man to get better before he is saved.
And such a statement is really, really, really, really scary.
This is really where I'd hope we would eventually arrive...the place where it's clear that "Three Steppers" believe in a system of salvation by works, believe in a system where we earn our salvation.
Several of you have parsed scripture and laid out quite an impressive exegetical argument...much better than I could. But the nuts and bolts of the whole thing? There is a large group of people here who believe they've earned their salvation.
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Is Christs command only forensic or intrinsic to salvation and eternal life?
oh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
What about
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
What about obedience?
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Losing your life completely?
Mat 19:16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?"
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
Mat 19:18 He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Mat 19:20 The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?"
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
What about keep the commandments and negating all to follow Christ.
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
obeying?
Rom 2:6 He14 will reward 15 each one according to his works :16
Rom 2:7 eternal life to those who by perseverance in good works seek glory and honor and immortality,
what about BY perserverance in good works?
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
What about commandments?
The Spirit gives utterance, not self. And begging God is not the key. I personally know from experience that I sought the Spirit baptism for six months. The trouble was, that I knew I was not letting go of some sins, and when I let go of them I got the Spirit right away! I can only go by my experience.
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