How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Yaaaaaawwwwnnn. I just woke up from my snooze. Any luck with that verse yet? I just need to find one single, solitary, flippin' time

Just swear and get it over with. You know you want to. You already did it in your heart, anyway.

that someone in the bible "sought for the Holy Ghost" and didn't get it.

Yes, I know I'm

There's that aggression thing again...

but it's just so much fun to see scholars come up empty in defending their flawed beliefs.

You never showed us where infilling of the Spirit occurs before Baptism of the Spirit.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Miracles still happen.

Indeed, I do believe in miracles. However, I believe reality has stretched this doctrine quite thin. Are you really prepared to go around validating everyone’s salvation on whether or not they’ve exhibited “speaking in tongues?” Personally, I refuse to coerce people to produce some outward manifestation of inward faith to prove something that is intimately personal, especially if that means asking them to do the impossible, unless, that is, it is commanded in scripture explicitly. The only justification for such audacity would be the ability to produce solid teaching from the Early Church leaders. Maybe even one verse commanding it would suffice?

I agree with NOW on this one. Imo, “Initial Evidence” has placed an undue emphasis on the sign instead of the giver of the sign. No matter how you slice it, this doctrine borders on usurping the very sovereignty of God, particularly the way it gets played out in many Pentecostal circles. And I say it’s arrogance of cosmic proportions if ultimately incorrect. While I am not ashamed to be labeled a continuationist, I do believe salvation by external evidence tends toward the carnal side, and betrays the core concept of Christianity, which is, “I am loved of Christ, therefore I obey.” This doctrine operates in reverse. We find sincere people reaching out for the effects, instead of experiencing first the cause. As many have already pointed out, where were folks given a rationale to speak or seek tongues in the NT?

Don’t get me wrong, I fully believe in “signs and wonders” as do many others. Keep in mind, however, that what might seem to be “new” revelations of “truth” hidden for centuries, may just be someone’s miscalculation based upon a snapshot of time. Haven’t other brilliant scholarly Christians studied these things also? Why did they arrive at different conclusions? The verdict among the majority is that the doctrine fails basic hermeneutical standards to make it to the next level. After all, it started as a “spiritual experiment” to begin with, and from a man of questionable credentials, who was not as fully persuaded as you are.

In parting, I do commend you for declaring that before proposing doctrine, it must first be considered in light of context and the entirety of scripture, however, I would dare throw in historical facts, sensible reasoning, and the reality of how this bears out in the Christian life. You have connected the dots in Acts, but how do they line up with the big picture?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Any luck with that verse yet? I just need to find one single, solitary, flippin' time

Let's cut to the chase here. When it comes to what scripture states what conclusions, there are no scriptures that show the million and one hypothetical situations that show what people could have mistakenly done.

There is not going to be a verse showing someone seeking for the Holy Ghost and not getting it since they refused to repent of sin any more than there is going to be a verse showing someone people coming to Jesus for healing and not getting it because they refused to let go of witchcraft. It's totally redundant to ask for such a verse. It's folly to seek for proofs of such things in the bible. The bible has enough to say about what TO DO, without having to show all the million wrong paths people may TRY To take and be unable to take.

Notofworks, do you think there is ANY OBEDIENCE ON OUR PART required to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what obedience is there?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Indeed, I do believe in miracles. However, I believe reality has stretched this doctrine quite thin. Are you really prepared to go around validating everyone’s salvation on whether or not they’ve exhibited “speaking in tongues?” Personally, I refuse to coerce people to produce some outward manifestation of inward faith to prove something that is intimately personal, especially if that means asking them to do the impossible, unless, that is, it is commanded in scripture explicitly. The only justification for such audacity would be the ability to produce solid teaching from the Early Church leaders. Maybe even one verse commanding it would suffice?

I agree in principle. I believe tongues is the initial evidence of the Holy Ghost. Nothing anyone has said has veered me from that persuasion. But at the same time, abuse of that belief and how some people have in turn ABUSED PEOPLE with that doctrine is no reason to say the doctrine is wrong. I say that to say this: I am not going to judge a person's salvation either way. EITHER WAY! People mock the believe that tongues is evidence of the Spirit baptism in a teaching that demands Spirit baptism for salvation, as judging people, and yet there is the judgment of no need for such a thing as well. Those who usually criticize another's view of judgment for salvation are judges, themselves, on the other end of the spectrum. They insist such and such is all that is needed for salvation.

Why do people have to wind up saying lack of THIS or THAT makes for hell? Why not preach what the bible shows people preaching, leave hell out of it where the bible leaves hell out of it, mention hell where the bible mentions hell, and leave people in the hands of God to sort out later?

It seems some people JUST HAVE TO SAY people will go to hell if __________. Priscilla and Aquila showed the way more perfectly to Apollos. We read them saying no words about hell to Apollos. Yes, I believe in Acts 2:38 salvation and tongues as initial evidence of the Spirit, but I am not going to proclaim hell to anyone who does otherwise when Peter did not even do so in Acts 2. Why do people think they have to say "...or you'll go to hell?" And for the onesteppers, do not think every three stepper is a harsh hell hollering preacher either.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just swear and get it over with. You know you want to. You already did it in your heart, anyway.

••The word "Flippin' " is from Napoleon Dynamite. If I wanted to cuss, I would.

There's that aggression thing again...

••I agree, but "Passive" is nowhere to be found.

You never showed us where infilling of the Spirit occurs before Baptism of the Spirit.

Well, I don't necessarily concede that the "Infilling" and the "Baptism" are any different...at all....but yes, of course I have. I've quoted the three main verses repeatedly on this forum and one of them is in my signature.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Notofworks, do you think there is ANY OBEDIENCE ON OUR PART required to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what obedience is there?

That's not the argument, here. We're talking about someone "trying" to "get the Holy Ghost" and coming up empty. Look, come on Mike, if we're gonna run people through the salvation wringer repeatedly, forcing them to crawl to the altar and beg for something, and get rejected by God for reason that, apparently, only He knows, we ought to, at least, have some bible for it.

That's all I'm asking. Just find some scripture for it. But you know it, and I know it, and Billy Graham, and D.L. Moody, and Billy Sunday, and Walter Martin, and Daffy Duck, knows you CAN'T. That's just the absolute bottom line.

So pray for people all you want and have the finest strategy for "Praying them through to the Holy Ghost". And EVERY SINGLE TIME they come up empty, something just happened that NEVER.....ONE TIME, took place in the bible.

[Isaiah]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

There's no option for zero...

When I got the Holy Ghost, I didn't even know what it was. I just felt conviction and went to the altar crying and praying. Since I didn't know what the Holy Ghost was at the time because my family had just started going to the UPC church, I didn't know to ask for it.

I would have to agree. I didnt know anything about the Holy Spirit or the definite sign of recieving such authentic transcendance. I simply walked up to an altar in tears after much conviction reigned upon my heart and there the Lord met me and filled me. "... Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues..." (Acts 19:6). Thinking about the first time the Lord filled me of sure does bring much joy to my heart. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5). "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isaiah 57:15). Of a surety the Lord is Good.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

That's not the argument, here. We're talking about someone "trying" to "get the Holy Ghost" and coming up empty. Look, come on Mike, if we're gonna run people through the salvation wringer repeatedly, forcing them to crawl to the altar and beg for something, and get rejected by God for reason that, apparently, only He knows, we ought to, at least, have some bible for it.

That's all I'm asking. Just find some scripture for it. But you know it, and I know it, and Billy Graham, and D.L. Moody, and Billy Sunday, and Walter Martin, and Daffy Duck, knows you CAN'T. That's just the absolute bottom line.

So pray for people all you want and have the finest strategy for "Praying them through to the Holy Ghost". And EVERY SINGLE TIME they come up empty, something just happened that NEVER.....ONE TIME, took place in the bible.

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God. The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

The fact is lack of repentance keeps people back. It did me. You can interpret that any other way that allows you to shoot that thought down, but it is only lack of repentance that keeps people back from receiving anything from God. I think it falls under the category of asking amiss. There is a state of being which does not consciously seek to sin that is required for reception of the Spirit. Do you honestly think God will give His Spirit to someone just because they ask even though they consciously want to sin?

And the reason I raised the issue of OBEDIENCE is because it is associated. Consciously seeking to sin holds one back from the Spirit and that is a matter of obedience. To know where you are coming from, do you believe obedience is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what is the obedience?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God. The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

The fact is lack of repentance keeps people back. It did me. You can interpret that any other way that allows you to shoot that thought down, but it is only lack of repentance that keeps people back from receiving anything from God. I think it falls under the category of asking amiss. There is a state of being which does not consciously seek to sin that is required for reception of the Spirit. Do you honestly think God will give His Spirit to someone just because they ask even though they consciously want to sin?

And the reason I raised the issue of OBEDIENCE is because it is associated. Consciously seeking to sin holds one back from the Spirit and that is a matter of obedience. To know where you are coming from, do you believe obedience is necessary to receive the Holy Ghost? If so, what is the obedience?

I think there are other things that may hold someone back from receiving the Holy Spirit.

Distractions. You have to have your mind on God...one to one communication with Him to receive anything or for Him to receive your prayers. All the commotion that goes on at the altar can be very distracting. Instead of talking to God, the seeker is listening to those around him.

Doubt. The slightest doubt can hinder a seeker from receiving the Spirit, afterall the we receive the Spirit by faith.

Commitment. There can't be any half heartedness. The seeker has to be seeking for the right reasons.

There may be other reasons.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Like I said, there is no scripture that shows the million and one variables that could be holding people back from receiving from God. The world could not contain the books required to show all the variables.

. . .

So, it's really that complicated? God has a whole slew of requirements (call them variables, if you like) and He's not even going to tell us what they all are?

Weird.