Deep Apostolic Teachers?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Bro. Jason, I understand your argument, however, you have not addressed the majority of my post......you are a scholarly young man, and even though I strongly disagree with the direction you have taken doctrinally (based on what I have read on this forum) I value your writings and enjoy discussions from time to time. That said.....again you have ignored the greater part of my post.

Thank you. I think I answered in my long post.

Originally Posted by bishoph

The fact remains that if tithe was originally a tenth (which it was) and if tithes were given under the law, then the church should be more generous NOT less.

See my comments above. This philosophy is damaging.

Originally Posted by bishoph

I do believe that the early church had the law as a precedent and therefore because they were a tithing culture/people giving was probably a non-issue to them.

I agree taht the Jewish chruch had the law as a precedent and tithing propbably wasn't an issue to them. In fact we know that Jewish Christians still participated in the Jewish Feasts (thus we can assume they brought agricultural tithes) and continued to observe Judaism until the fall of the 2nd Temple.

However, it is a real stretch to assume this extended beyond the borders of Israel or outside of cultural Judaism. There is NO proof that the early Gentile church did anything except for take up a collection and then provide for the needy with that collection. They had no need to "tithe" because they didn't have buildings (meeting in homes will keep the overhead down), didn't have A/C, pews to buy, or sound systems, didn't have professional ministry (even in Jewish culture it was a shame for a Levite NOT to have a trade-this whole full time priest/pastor idea has a lot more to do with paganism that Judaism or Biblical Christianity), thus for those reasons and more the Gentile churches had no need to tithe. If my information is wrong pelase correct me. I've read David Bernards History of Christian Doctrine (all 3 volumes, twice-he pretty much avoids the doctrine of tithing all together), Lattourette's History of Christianity, he says tithing didn't become universally accepted until well after the Catholic institution was established and it was taken out of the OT to support the number of priests and upkeep of the buildings. I'm reading Schaff's History of the Christian church, I'm in the 3rd volume (4th century) and thus far churches only took up freewill offerings, and in reading F.F. Bruce's New Testament History in which he focused primarily on the 1st century for over 500 pages, nothing about tithing in the churches.

I've studied and am still studying, but your argument here is just trying to connect imaginary dots. Just because the apostles were Jewish doesn't mean they didn't understand that the tithe was for the people of Israel to support the Levitical priesthood, and NOT for the Gentiles, in fact they would have understood this quite clearly.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Because of their strong "law" based giving structure the "freewill" offerings were most likely MORE than a tithe not less. Remember the early church was a Judaeo church

Actually the early church was made up of many economically challenged classes, especially women (most who weren't allowed to work unless they worked as a harlot) and slaves.

See here's a major point. If tithing is a requirement, then it is a requirement for all believers of all times, regardless of culture, economic situation, etc. If you get a dollar, you give a time, and it doesn't matter if you live in an affluent nation or a third world country. Not only is that not biblical, its not logical. In Israel God controlled the nation. He sent the blessing and He withheld the blessing. As His people were obedient to Him he blessed them, when they weren't He chastened them. So the tithe made sense for the Jewish people (again only those who made their living off agriculture had to tithe, no record of fisherman, carpenters, or blacksmiths tithing).

However as the gospel goes out to the Gentile nation there are going to be different cicumstances. There are going to be times of war, famine, dictatorships, the rise of Islam and its oppressive taxes. Communism. All the horrors of the world. Starvation, extreme poverty. If tithing is Biblical and required of believers, it is required no matter what. Thats not what we see in history, its not what we see right now. Tithing ONLY "works" as a universal law for all believers in a culture such as ours.

Originally Posted by bishoph

Regardless of our differences my friend, my main objective in entering this discussion was to point out the judgmental and pompous spirit and attitude that was being spewed out by our friend Sean on this topic. To wish and even pray for pastors and leaders to die because they teach something that you feel is in error is NOT the spirit of Christ. When the disciples saw some not of their persuasion casting out devils in the name of Christ....they forbid them and rebuked them.....Jesus let them know they had the wrong spirit and just a few verses later they wanted to call down fire from heaven and destroy folks who rejected Jesus....yet Jesus rebuked them because they "knew not what spirit they were of." Such diatribe makes it easy for one to say then his teaching must be in error as well, because he says God has told him this and made this MORE IMPORTANT than winning souls and sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Agreed.