The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy Ghost

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jesus said many would be lost who nevertheless cast out demons in Jesus' name, etc. These were people who professed that Jesus was Lord.

So apparently one can not only "have the Holy Ghost" and be lost, but even be baptized and functioning within the visible church, professing Jesus is Lord, and be lost. Jesus did not revoke their salvation, He said He would say to them "I never knew you." Meaning, they were never saved to begin with. (Matt 7:23)

Paul taught likewise that one can operate in all the gifts and still be lost (1 Cor 13).

Cornelius' experience was indeed a departure from the norm. But it was not for the purpose of showing that forgiveness operates independently from baptism.

The unproven assumption is that one must be forgiven before receiving the Spirit. I find a total of 0 verses which say that. What is stated is that the world cannot receive the Spirit, thus it seems that being called is the prerequisite. Yet, many are called, but few are chosen. And, the calling must be made sure (established, made certain and effectual).

Being called occurs prior to being forgiven. It is thus possible to receive the Spirit prior to bring forgiven.

But perhaps more importantly we should consider why the Bible does not view salvation as a series of steps, like we often do. So that we see "problems and conundrums" where the Bible does not. Biblically, salvation is more holistic. "What if X but not Y?" is more along the lines of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Originally Posted by Esaias

...the context, and the angel's words to Cornelius, and Peter's response to the incident demonstrate quite the opposite, that baptism is for the remission of sins, even in Cornelius' case.





(Regarding Acts 2:38 supposedly showing forgiveness as a prerequisite to receiving the Spirit)... if anything it shows the prerequisite is "repent AND BE BAPTISED". It doesn't say "be forgiven so you can receive the Spirit". It says repent and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Spirit. "You shall" and "so you can" are two different things, one is not the other





(Salvation) according to Scripture is conjoined with being placed into Christ, which parallels being placed into Moses (1 Cor 10) which requires "water and Spirit" (John 3:5). In other words, it is identified with new birth or regeneration, which is identified with water baptism AND receiving the Spirit, which is viewed in Scripture not as separable events but as a whole (a unity, being born again, converted, "saved").


Scripture presents (initial) salvation or conversion as an effect or result of repentance, baptism in the Lord's name, and receiving the Spirit. We habitually break this soteriological unity into component parts or " steps" but I believe that is unscriptural (since the apostles never did such).


Being forgiven but still lost... receiving the Spirit but still lost... are erroneous ways of thinking and speaking, due to separating the unity of conversion into "steps". Common, but erroneous. (A)ttempt(ing) to solve the error by.positing remission of sins prior to baptism is just another species of the same basic error.

Originally Posted by Antipas

Hmmm...

If one can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to the remission/forgiveness of sins, then we have a theological problem.

The "theological problem" only exists if one first assumes remission of sins is a prerequisite to receiving the Spirit, which is the very point in question, and which has nowhere been demonstrated. It is just assumed to be true. My posts quoted above provide a demonstration that remission of sins need not be a prerequisite to receiving the Spirit, and Cornelius' example proves it.

If baptism is for the remission of sins, then Cornelius' sins were not remitted until AFTER he was water baptized, which was AFTER he received the Holy Ghost. Therefore, it is proven scripturally that remission of sins is not required to occur prior to receiving the Spirit.

The only way to maintain otherwise is to prove baptism is not in fact for the remission of sins, which cannot be done.

Here, I turn my attention to the doctrine of Justification. Justification is repeatedly stated to be the result of saving faith.

So I ask this...

Is it possible that one's faith and repentance, prior to baptism, allows one to become Justified in the eyes of God, thereby opening up the possibility of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is being "born of spirit" (Regeneration)???

No. Paul's doctrine of faith is not juxtaposed in apposition to baptism. In other words, Paul isn't contrasting faith with baptism. His use of faith in terms of justification is in contrast to attempting to be justified by the law. The comparison is between Judaism and Christianity. When Paul speaks of "by faith", the one so justified is a Christian, and is assumed to have been baptised, for the Bible does not recognize the "unbaptized Christian".

Remission of sins is a function of justification. It is not a separable "step" or event. Remission of sins is a phrase that means one's crimes have been forgiven, blotted out, removed from one's account. Justification means to have one's sins (crimes) blotted out, removed from the record, so that the individual is declared righteous. They are, in effect, the same thing.

And since remission of sins occurs in water baptism, that is where justification occurs (initially being declared righteous, one's record of sins being blotted out, etc).

Furthermore, it is in Christian baptism that one "washes away your sins" (Acts 22:16). Therefore, "cleansing" takes place in water baptism as well.