What's your view on Hell?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Paul is talking about himself in third person. It is a man that "he knows" that saw great revelations, and then he, Paul, has great revelations to boast about, but because of the abundance of revelations.... The third person is a way to even humble himself more, but it is rhetoric. It is also talking about the same man, not two men (I know a man... And I know such man...how he was...).

Read it in context:

2 Corinthians 12:1-7 (NKJV) 1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

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So yes, it is the same man, and it is Paul, and he was caught up to Paradise in the third heaven in a vision.

He specifically says "of myself I will NOT boast EXCEPT in mine infirmities", so he is speaking of someone ELSE having ecstatic experiences.

Also, in verse 3 he says "and" showing he refers to two different persons. There is nothing to suggest they are the same person, and his diction strongly implies they are not the same person. And therefore the passage in no way proves paradise is in heaven.

Now please explain how if Paradise is in heaven, Jesus went there BEFORE EVENING on the same day He was crucified?

I explained the reason why the apparent contradiction between the OT and the NT.

I think all you said was basically in the OT they were unclear on what happens after death, but then it all became clearer in the NT when Jesus uttered the story of the rich man and Lazarus? Is that your position?

I explained this too. Lazarus went to "Abraham Bosom" a metaphor for the side of Hades that was for the just. Paradise is in heaven, and became the destination of the saints after Jesus' death.

He went to Abraham's bosom and lo and behold Abraham is there with him. Almost like Abraham's bosom isn't a metaphor for anything, and actually means his bosom where Lazarus reclined with him in standard ANE style. Where is the evidence, the Scriptural Revelation that:

1. Hades has two distinct compartments or locations,

2. One of which is known as "Abraham's Bosom", and

3. The dead could communicate with one another from one compartment to another?

Where is any of this coming from? The parable? Why was nobody astounded at such new, heretofore unheard of revelations concerning the structure and character of the intermediate state? Why are those details never mentioned ever after, much less ever before? And more importantly, why is it that people who believe in continued consciousness after death always preach about the "moment after you die" but hardly ever preach about the Resurrection and Judgment Day like the apostles? ESPECIALLY in an evangelistic context?

Paul said:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is very different than the comforting words given by the average immortal soulist. Instead, they talk about how the dear departed saint is in heaven enjoying streets of gold and their nice new mansion, talking with saints of old and sweet Momma who passed on years before. How many hymns and songs are in this vein?

And compare to the apostolic command to give comfort by talking about THE RESURRECTION with the only reference to the intermediate state being a reference to SLEEP of the saints???? Makes me think the apostles did not believe as most today believe.

Gotcha. So the "sleeping" of the soul is not a temporary cessation to exist. I didn't know that.

I explained this early on, it is called "sleep" because it is a temporary interruption of life, ending with the resurrection when the dead "awake" ie come back to life.

That's a good point. But notice that those that are in the grave their ears are decomposed and not able to hear anyways. So this text has to be a truth communicated with a figure of speech. So, the ones in the grave hearing his voice refers to when God speaks the word commanding the resurrection to raise them all from the grave. It speaks of a miracle, like in Genesis: God speaks, things happen. Probably the reason for that figure of speech is for the rhetorical impact of reminding the hearers that one day God will call them to be accountable to what they did. It does not contradict the souls being conscious in Hades.

But it contradicts the souls being conscious in heaven. If you are in heaven are you in the grave?

Again, it is not the BODY ALONE which is raised out of the grave (sheol, hades) but the PERSON. And what are they doing there?

Psalm 6:5 KJV
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

They are not doing anything whatsoever except waiting for the resurrection.