What's your view on Hell?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Which then raises the question: What third heaven? How many heavens are there? Is Paradise in one of those heavens? Or is it beyond at least the third heaven? Is it separate from those heavens? WHERE IS THIS INFORMATION COMING FROM, and more importantly WHAT ARE WE TO DO WITH IT?

This ties into something else you said which I will make a separate post about in a moment.

Where is this information coming from?

Other than the text in question (2 Cor 12) there is NO mention in Scripture of any "third heaven". However, in Paul's day, Jews believed in SEVEN HEAVENS. And each particular one had certain particular characteristics. And Paradise - according to Jewish beliefs - was somewhere beyond the third heaven. Also, Jewish sects and schools of thought differed as to the heavenly cosmology.

Is this what Paul is referring to? Some scholars believe so, that Paul believed in seven heavens (a common prevailing Jewish belief).

But how is it that Jewish mysticism is true, and reveals all these neat little factoids about the universe and about heaven.... yet GOD'S Holy Word is silent about such things? God provided no details in His Word, yet some rabbinical mystics have discovered the truth? And Paul, writing to primarily GREEK GENTILE BELIEVERS, is now endorsing such things? Basically he would be telling them "Run to the rabbis, they got all the secrets even Moses and the Prophets couldn't reveal!"

Do we really want to go there?

And why is it that the New Testament, which supposedly provides much clearer detail about these things, simply mention them in passing with no details at all? Leaving the meat and potatoes to be found in the TALMUD and the ZOHAR?

Seriously?

OR... perhaps... Paul is referencing then current ideas and concepts WITHOUT ACTUALLY ENDORSING THEM?

What did Paul say about information imparted to someone from beyond?

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. ..(1Co 14:29)

Inspired utterances (and by extension all supposed or claimed revelations from God) are to be JUDGED.

How? How are they to be judged if not by a prayerful Spirit-directed application of the WORD OF GOD to the claimed inspired utterance, revelation, vision, etc?

When Paul says "of such a one will I boast, but not of myself", is he endorsing the doctrinal correctness of the alleged revelations and visions? Is that a rational conclusion?

NO.

He is simply saying that when it comes to visions and revelations, he knows some brethren who have had amazing and astounding such experiences. Regarding the CONTENT AND MEANING of those experiences, he never involves himself. He says nothing whatsoever about the merit or usefulness or application of those experiences. He goes so far as to say he cannot tell whether those experiences were "with or without the body" (meaning with or apart from the body, ie whether the experiences involved direct sense perception (eyes and ears seeing and hearing things) or whether they did NOT involve actual sense perception but were directly communicated to the mind by a spiritual ecstasis). He has no stated opinion on what the church is to make of them. He goes into no detail. He provides no description of what was seen or heard. He literally just says something happened that qualifies as "visions and revelations".

Speaking of which...

When John has a VISION during a REVELATION and goes up to heaven and sees a four square city coming down to the earth with one gold street and twelve giant pearls for gates... is that actually what is literally up there? When he sees four beasts surrounding God's throne are there literally four creatures, one of which has a human head, one of which has an eagle's head, one of which has a cow's head, and one of which has a lion's head, like big pets or something in the heavenly throne room? Or are those spiritual truths being communicated by SYMBOLS through a series of VISIONS during a spiritual experience?

Did John physically leave Patmos and go to heaven and discover there is a literal lamb with seven horns and seven eyes that was walking around up there? Or was it a VISION in the SPIRIT?

Why would we assume the ones mentioned in passing in 2nd Corinthians ch 12 are qualitatively different?