We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. Some people lead up to trying to get you to keep sabbath day when they use this line. They say His commandments are the Ten Commandments of Moses.

Jesus' commandments did include sabbath day, and were beyond Law. The Pharisees said that you were not to do anything (see list on restrictions) on the Sabbath. But Jesus took the Spirit of that Law and said "Man is Lord over the Sabbath".

Actually, Jesus' commandments fulfilled the Law. Even though we do not have every word said by Jesus, we do have the essence of what he taught, by what the Apostles (or their disciples) recorded.

We do know that Jesus taught on the Law. The Law should not be taken lightly, but we have to proper apply it to our lives and cultures. This is what Paul was explaining in a lot of his writings.

God's word is established forever. Jesus even stated that not one Ioda would be left out (Dotting of the I and crossing of the T). Heaven and Earth would pass away before that would happen. So we must be weary of brushing off the Law as not relevant to your Christian life. For the Law shows you what Sin is, so that you may over come it by the blood of the Lamb.

One thing that Jesus did say, was that because of our hearts, no one could ever fulfill the spirit of the Law. That could only be achieved by Faith in Jesus Christ, with the renewing of our minds, and being Born Again as the new man Adam.

Second, a lot of the standards of the UPC stem out of teachings of Separation. Have you ever wondered why they teach against facial hair? It was to separate ourselves from the "Jesus Movement" of the 60's (especially here in California). These were hippies and bikers, that were "preaching Jesus" but living sinful lives. Actually, quite a few of the Holiness/Oneness teachers of the Early 1900's had facial hair.

But the bible does teach, that if you are going to have facial hair, that you do not follow after the traditions of Egypt (the World), but to follow specific guidelines of the Law (especially for the Priests).

I would advise anyone that would question the Holiness standards, to search the scriptures, read the writings of previous Holiness Preachers, so that you understand where they are coming from on a specific subject. A lot of it is based on common sense and convictions by the Word and Spirit.

I would say most of them are not a Heaven or Hell issue. But one scripture comes to mind for that. Hebrews 12:1 - "1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and(A) sin which clings so closely, and(B) let us run(C) with endurance the race that is(D) set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith,(E) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising(F) the shame, and(G) is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

The key there is Weight and Sin. Things that can be a weight to us, might not be a sin, but we are still commanded to set it aside.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by NorCal

Actually, Jesus' commandments fulfilled the Law. Even though we do not have every word said by Jesus, we do have the essence of what he taught, by what the Apostles (or their disciples) recorded.

Right. When Jesus said he fulfilled the law, it was not that he promoted adherence to law, but that the law expired as though it had an expiry date that would occur when that which law could not accomplish would be accomplished by another means.

Paul told Timothy that the Law's goal was to produce unfeigned faith, a good conscience and charity out of a pure heart. Law could not accomplish that. What the law could not do, Christ did! And that is why Paul then tells Timothy that grace is filled with the very love and faith that Law meant to provide. That is how Jesus came to fulfill the law.

Romans 8:3-4 corresponds to 1 Tim 1:5, 14. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit in faith for God to empower us rather than walking after the flesh in efforts to obey law. And this walk by the Spirit is provided through the work of Cross which is what Jesus meant by saying He came to fulfill the law.

We do know that Jesus taught on the Law. The Law should not be taken lightly, but we have to proper apply it to our lives and cultures. This is what Paul was explaining in a lot of his writings.

Law is basically self making self righteous, and it does not work due to the sin in our flesh. So walking after the flesh is living by law. Jesus came so that we might walk after the Spirit and thereby see the works of the flesh cease, and there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit that results.

God's word is established forever. Jesus even stated that not one Ioda would be left out (Dotting of the I and crossing of the T). Heaven and Earth would pass away before that would happen. So we must be weary of brushing off the Law as not relevant to your Christian life. For the Law shows you what Sin is, so that you may over come it by the blood of the Lamb.

Jesus said something wonderful about law not passing away, and many miss it. He said heaven and earth passes before law will pass away. But he also said that the law WAS UNTIL JOHN THE BAPTIST. IOW, John's ministry heralded the end of law which heaven and earth could not otherwise outlive!

The law is holy! It is not evil or wrong. But it expired since man could not live by it.

That is why Jer 31:31 said a NEW COVENANT would come for Israel, which opened up to us gentiles as well. And the new covenant came because MAN COULD NOT CONTINUE IN THE OLD. The NEW covenant allows for the law to be written in our HEARTS instead of a reference note on stone. When it is in your heart, your nature has been changed to do what is right without having to force self through walking after the flesh. So, the law could not be kept and people could not continue in it.

Many make the mistake of trying to turn the New Testament into another form of law by emphasizing the incorrect concept of reading it and making ourselves obey it, when we might as well still be under law if we do it that way. That is walking after the flesh.

One thing that Jesus did say, was that because of our hearts, no one could ever fulfill the spirit of the Law. That could only be achieved by Faith in Jesus Christ, with the renewing of our minds, and being Born Again as the new man Adam.

Second, a lot of the standards of the UPC stem out of teachings of Separation. Have you ever wondered why they teach against facial hair? It was to separate ourselves from the "Jesus Movement" of the 60's (especially here in California). These were hippies and bikers, that were "preaching Jesus" but living sinful lives. Actually, quite a few of the Holiness/Oneness teachers of the Early 1900's had facial hair.

Exactly. And now it is 50 years past that time and the standard is useless now.

But the bible does teach, that if you are going to have facial hair, that you do not follow after the traditions of Egypt (the World), but to follow specific guidelines of the Law (especially for the Priests).

That is not an issue today, since the issue in olden times was making it evident to sinners a pagan association which is not the case today.

I would advise anyone that would question the Holiness standards, to search the scriptures, read the writings of previous Holiness Preachers, so that you understand where they are coming from on a specific subject. A lot of it is based on common sense and convictions by the Word and Spirit.

I would say most of them are not a Heaven or Hell issue. But one scripture comes to mind for that. Hebrews 12:1 - "1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and(A) sin which clings so closely, and(B) let us run(C) with endurance the race that is(D) set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith,(E) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising(F) the shame, and(G) is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

The key there is Weight and Sin. Things that can be a weight to us, might not be a sin, but we are still commanded to set it aside.

I agree. But many of the holiness standards are not addressing that, as well.

[NorCal]

I agree with everything you stated on the Law. The Law is there to show us sin (as well as conviction by the Holy Ghost about stuff that the Law does not cover).

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly. And now it is 50 years past that time and the standard is useless now.
That is not an issue today, since the issue in olden times was making it evident to sinners a pagan association which is not the case today.

I do not agree with this. There are Fads and Fashions can be (and most often) sponsored by Spirits that we should never condone. Spirit of Homosexuality, for example. Living in Northern California, you can tell a gay man, not only by their demeanor, but by their Clothing Choice, Hair Style and look of their Facial Hair Trimming. Once again, why would you want to even make people wonder about that with you. Would that not be a weight to your witness?

Would you not consider that a Pagan association? Hippies have gone as far as to worship "Gia" or "Mother Earth". Is that also Pagan association?

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. But many of the holiness standards are not addressing that, as well.

That has been my point all along. Holiness is no longer really taught. Just standards. We need to put off every sin and weight so that we may draw closer to God. Why loosen your standards, when in all actuality, according to Jesus teachings on the Law, you should every day tighten them as the Holy Ghost pricks your heart.

I was listening to Bro Bernard about this. He stated that he rejoices that the morality of the world is diminishing. This brings the Power of the Holy Ghost and the Apostolic Message to the point of the workings in biblical days among the Gentiles. When people can see a true difference between your life in Christ and their heathen/philosophical life style, and the Power that the Holy Ghost is working in you, you become an even greater testimony to the Name.

Romans 12:2 - "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by NorCal

I agree with everything you stated on the Law. The Law is there to show us sin (as well as conviction by the Holy Ghost about stuff that the Law does not cover).


I do not agree with this. There are Fads and Fashions can be (and most often) sponsored by Spirits that we should never condone. Spirit of Homosexuality, for example. Living in Northern California, you can tell a gay man, not only by their demeanor, but by their Clothing Choice, Hair Style and look of their Facial Hair Trimming. Once again, why would you want to even make people wonder about that with you. Would that not be a weight to your witness?

There has never been a question by my appearance about anything to do with homosexuality. lol No one has ever proposed this in my experience.

Would you not consider that a Pagan association? Hippies have gone as far as to worship "Gia" or "Mother Earth". Is that also Pagan association?

No. We need to realize that it is not what we might suspect people might think but what they ACTUALLY think. Any regard over beards is simply reaching in order to maintain an outdated standard, when even in the 60's a well kept beard was not associated with hippies at all. Picture a professor wearing a well kept beard, and not the straggly mess that hippies wore. No one in the 60's would associate that with the hippies.

That has been my point all along. Holiness is no longer really taught. Just standards. We need to put off every sin and weight so that we may draw closer to God. We loosen your standards, when in all actuality, according to Jesus teachings on the Law, you should every day tighten them as the Holy Ghost pricks your heart.

Standards schmandards. Anyone following the Lord in true sincerity will know what and what not to do without being handed a list of standards.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There has never been a question by my appearance about anything to do with homosexuality. lol No one has ever proposed this in my experience.



No. We need to realize that it is not what we might suspect people might think but what they ACTUALLY think. Any regard over beards is simply reaching in order to maintain an outdated standard, when even in the 60's a well kept beard was not associated with hippies at all. Picture a professor wearing a well kept beard, and not the straggly mess that hippies wore. No one in the 60's would associate that with the hippies.



Standards schmandards. Anyone following the Lord in true sincerity will know what and what not to do without being handed a list of standards.

If you actually read what I said earlier, I was neither condemning nor condoning beards.

I just gave you 2 examples of why some men teach that specific standard, then and now. I just stated that if you are going to have a beard, conform to a standard that will separate you from the worldly action as portrayed biblically in the Old Testament to the Hebrew Priests. "You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard."

As Aquilla stated, this was to separate the Hebrew Priest from those of the Egyptian Cults.

For example, a man probably should not trim his beard in a thin line from each side burn connecting at the chin. This is very predominant in the gay community, and is such associated with the spirit. Would you question anyone in your church if they were to follow that practice? I hope so? Would you explain why? I would hope so also. Thus you have set a standard.

I am not here to Justify nor Condemn your use of facial hair, just giving the rational thinking backed by biblical principles. Not out of a "Holier then Though" mentality.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by NorCal

If you actually read what I said earlier, I was neither condemning nor condoning beards.

I just gave you 2 examples of why some men teach that specific standard, then and now. I just stated that if you are going to have a beard, conform to a standard that will separate you from the worldly action as portrayed biblically in the Old Testament to the Hebrew Priests. "You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard."

As Aquilla stated, this was to separate the Hebrew Priest from those of the Egyptian Cults.

For example, a man probably should not trim his beard in a thin line from each side burn connecting at the chin. This is very predominant in the gay community, and is such associated with the spirit. Would you question anyone in your church if they were to follow that practice? I hope so? Would you explain why? I would hope so also. Thus you have set a standard.

I am not here to Justify nor Condemn your use of facial hair, just giving the rational thinking backed by biblical principles.

Again, the rules for beards in the bible days have no bearing on the issue today. Egyptian cult appearance is totally irrelevant today. The only concern would be what impression it gives people, such as whether or not it has the gay look. Back then the impression included the well known cult movement in some appearances, not now. The actual principle to abide by is what does anything give people the impression of in OUR world now. For that reason Deut 22 said nothing about pants or dresses, just a principle using terms that applies regardless of the day or age -- men's and women's apparel.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NorCal

If you actually read what I said earlier, I was neither condemning nor condoning beards.

I just gave you 2 examples of why some men teach that specific standard, then and now. I just stated that if you are going to have a beard, conform to a standard that will separate you from the worldly action as portrayed biblically in the Old Testament to the Hebrew Priests. "You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard."

As Aquilla stated, this was to separate the Hebrew Priest from those of the Egyptian Cults.

For example, a man probably should not trim his beard in a thin line from each side burn connecting at the chin. This is very predominant in the gay community, and is such associated with the spirit. Would you question anyone in your church if they were to follow that practice? I hope so? Would you explain why? I would hope so also. Thus you have set a standard.

I am not here to Justify nor Condemn your use of facial hair, just giving the rational thinking backed by biblical principles. Not out of a "Holier then Though" mentality.

Real men were wearing facial hair like this long before gays started wearing the style. Also, we have to consider subculture. In my community gay men rarely wear facial hair. This is what I call "separation running scared". If gay men started driving Jeeps...do we stop driving Jeeps? They also wear certain designer jeans... should we choose not to wear designer jeans? They also wear Polo and Aqua Di Gio...should we choose not to wear fine colognes?

This approach to separation get's so silly and is anything but "principled". It's purely reactionary and illogical.