Man made standards. Who do they think they are??

[snicker1986]

Originally Posted by Sam

The purpose of the branch is to provide a place for the fruit to be displayed.
The branch does not struggle and toil to produce the fruit.
The fruit is automatically produced by the life that is flowing through and throughout the vine.
As long as the vine abides/continues in the vine, fruit will be produced.

Quite a few years ago I had a couple of tomato plants growing in amongst some flowers. I didn't really take care of them and they didn't produce any tomatoes. A neighbor was kidding me about them and said he had thought about attaching some of his tomatoes to them with clothes pins. This sound like some people who try to "attach" fruit to their lives by their own effort instead of allowing God to produce it as His life flows through them.

Galatians chapter 5 speaks of "the fruit of the Spirit" not about something that we are to artificially hang on the branches just for appearance sake.

Fruit displays that there is life in the branch and in the vine. Fruit will be apparent to the observer. If you are really attached to the vine, His life will produce fruit in your life.

Philippians 2:12-13 speaks of God working in us--both to will and to do of His pleasure. We can do, because God gives us the want to and the how to.

I dont post often - usually lurk - but had to reposnd here...

WOW - that was an amazing analogy - THANK YOU!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Or did he do so because fig leaves aren't very practical clothing material? They'd soon dry up, get brittle and fall to pieces. He made them clothing that would last.

We can conjecture all day, but the Bible just doesn't say.

This was in the day before Benadryl became available as a topical cream. Perhaps the whole "leaves as clothing" fad was just way too far ahead of its time?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The only thing I would point out is in doing the blood sacrifice thingy God did not have to also make clothes for them, but when he did he made coats not aprons

If I were to contend further I may find myself in the uncomfortable position of appearing to support the idea of "topless Eves" - when that is not my point at all.

The original question concerned the "gender specificity" of the garments in question. The aprons of fig leaves and the animal skin garments do not appear to have been sewn in any manner other than that which was necessary to "hide" or cover their shame.

The question of the "blood sacrifice" in the animal skins is something that I generally agree with, however it is not explicit and therefore, for me at least, it serves as a more devotional than a doctrinal point.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

You said that what we do doesn't save us but then said if we obey, He saves us. So ultimately what we are doing is obeying and that is how HE saves us. Has nothing to do with what we do of ourselves. Some folks though take this to the extreme and say we do nothing to abide in the vine, and that is simply not so.

I agree. I like what Sam said.

Jesus said "Consider the lilies, HOW they grow." How does a plant grow? Does it use its little leaves and lift weights and increase strength through self effort? No. It sinks its roots in the earth and DRAWS from the minerals and its leaves draw from the sunlight. It needs to remain rooted in the earth, though. That is just how it works with us. We draw from His strength, but it is up to us to remain rooted.

Paul told the Colossians to ensure they are rooted in Christ. He did not tell them to concoct their strength through ascetic means.

We have a part to play. Remain in the vine, and rooted in Christ. And DRAW from Him by His Spirit. As the sap flows from the vine into the branch and the nutrients from the roots and sunlight from the leaves, we draw on the HOLY GHOST POWER by being PLUGGED INTO CHRIST, like an electrical plug into an outlet. We have the ensure the plug is in the outlet, but the power comes from Christ!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Because you are saying you don't have to decide or choose to follow the Spirit. You are seemingly arguing its automatic, like we are robots programmed once saved to serve God, with no free will or choice in the matter. I argued this with you a couple days ago, remember?

Not robots, new creatures. When Christ died our old man (old sinful nature) was crucified with Him. When we receive the Spirit of God we become new creatures in that we are now partakers in Christ's divine nature. We have a new nature. This new nature is imparted to us via the Holy Spirit becoming one with our dead human spirit, bringing our spirit to divine life in Christ Jesus. At this point the individual is now one with Christ (the vine). This is “regeneration”. Our soul (the mind) is programmed to live according to the old sinful paradigms. So it needs to be renewed by washing it with the Word of God, bringing the soul in harmony with the spirit that is one with the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Our bodies still have carnal impulses that are hormonal and rooted in our biology. If the new nature of a fish was imparted to you, you’d love water. You’d swim naturally. You’d be at home in the water. We have the indwelling divine nature. Thus we are at home in that which is righteous and holy. Our spirits are troubled (convicted) when we sin or act out of accordance to the indwelling divine nature. Thus in a way, we are “programmed”, to desire holiness and righteousness. If one doesn’t… they were never regenerated. Period. Whatever they received wasn’t the Spirit of Christ Jesus.

So one’s human spirit is “regenerated”, saved.
One’s soul is being sanctified through the Word.
One’s body will be glorified at the coming of Jesus Christ.

The Father’s purpose and soul desire is to conform us into the image and likeness of Christ. That is the sole aim of the Christian faith as delivered to us by Christ Jesus. No human being can become like Christ. Only Jesus Christ can be Christ. This is why allowing the Spirit of Christ to live the “Christ-life” (Christianity) out through us is essential. Jesus lives the Christian life because as a human being, it’s impossible. If we are “dead”, crucified with Christ, we are dead to the Law. It isn’t binding upon us in any way. The payment has been paid (death) through Christ Jesus and the wrath of God fully satisfied (propitiation). We must rest from trying to be justified by the Law, we’re dead to it. Thus we are taking control from God when working works by effort and will power. All must be done through the indwelling Spirit in accordance to His very nature which we are partakers of. Absolute surrender from sin and toil. The branch doesn’t frantically try to bear fruit. It simply remains one with the vine. The vine’s life flows through the branch bringing fruit. Likewise the Christian isn’t to frantically try to bear fruit, this is operating in the flesh (legalism). The Christian must simply abide in Christ through the Spirit and allow Christ’s own life and power to be manifest in them bearing precious fruit. That’s why these fruit are called the “fruit of the Spirit” and not the “fruit of the believer”.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Not robots, new creatures. When Christ died our old man (old sinful nature) was crucified with Him. When we receive the Spirit of God we become new creatures in that we are now partakers in Christ's divine nature. We have a new nature. This new nature is imparted to us via the Holy Spirit becoming one with our dead human spirit, bringing our spirit to divine life in Christ Jesus. At this point the individual is now one with Christ (the vine). This is “regeneration”. Our soul (the mind) is programmed to live according to the old sinful paradigms. So it needs to be renewed by washing it with the Word of God, bringing the soul in harmony with the spirit that is one with the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Our bodies still have carnal impulses that are hormonal and rooted in our biology. If the new nature of a fish was imparted to you, you’d love water. You’d swim naturally. You’d be at home in the water. We have the indwelling divine nature. Thus we are at home in that which is righteous and holy. Our spirits are troubled (convicted) when we sin or act out of accordance to the indwelling divine nature. Thus in a way, we are “programmed”, to desire holiness and righteousness. If one doesn’t… they were never regenerated. Period. Whatever they received wasn’t the Spirit of Christ Jesus.

So one’s human spirit is “regenerated”, saved.
One’s soul is being sanctified through the Word.
One’s body will be glorified at the coming of Jesus Christ.

The Father’s purpose and soul desire is to conform us into the image and likeness of Christ. That is the sole aim of the Christian faith as delivered to us by Christ Jesus. No human being can become like Christ. Only Jesus Christ can be Christ. This is why allowing the Spirit of Christ to live the “Christ-life” (Christianity) out through us is essential. Jesus lives the Christian life because as a human being, it’s impossible. If we are “dead”, crucified with Christ, we are dead to the Law. It isn’t binding upon us in any way. The payment has been paid (death) through Christ Jesus and the wrath of God fully satisfied (propitiation). We must rest from trying to be justified by the Law, we’re dead to it. Thus we are taking control from God when working works by effort and will power. All must be done through the indwelling Spirit in accordance to His very nature which we are partakers of. Absolute surrender from sin and toil. The branch doesn’t frantically try to bear fruit. It simply remains one with the vine. The vine’s life flows through the branch bringing fruit. Likewise the Christian isn’t to frantically try to bear fruit, this is operating in the flesh (legalism). The Christian must simply abide in Christ through the Spirit and allow Christ’s own life and power to be manifest in them bearing precious fruit. That’s why these fruit are called the “fruit of the Spirit” and not the “fruit of the believer”.

You are talking past me Bro! I am saying that you consciously have to allow this change, it doesn't come natural. I think Bro. Blume and Sam and I would all agree that it does take our decision to abide in the vine, before fruit can truly occur.




John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

I don't the point of "they were never truly saved to begin with matches this" These vines were "attached" but were thrown away and withered. At one point they were attached.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Aquila why didn't you address the scriptures PO posted? A man's word surely doesn't carry more weight than the scriptures themselves. I know you better than that I think?

lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

You are talking past me Bro! I am saying that you consciously have to allow this change, it doesn't come natural.

If you’re a new creature, it does come “natural”. Here’s what I mean….

When an un-regenerated sinner sins they feel like it’s just another day. They are being themselves; for example an un-regenerated couple living together out of wedlock. They might feel social pressure to marry from friends and family. But they don’t feel any deep spiritual shame or conviction. If their family doesn’t apply such social pressure they feel like they are enjoying and sharing life together.

But a Christian is different. A Christian is one with the Spirit of God that dwells within them. A Christian is a new creature with a new nature, the divine nature that they now take part in. So if one or both of these un-regenerated Christians becomes “born again” they will begin feel like something is “not right”, something has changed even if they aren’t sure what. As they study the Word of God and the mind of Christ is developed in them, their thoughts regarding sin will come into harmony with what God says about sin. This brings the soul and spirit into moral harmony. During this process their “conviction” may build into “godly sorrow for sin”. At this point they can begin grieving the Holy Spirit by continuing together, or they can repent and plan to marry or separate. If they choose to grieve the Spirit, they are not lost. God will “turn up the heat” to bring the repentance necessary, even if it takes half a lifetime. Time isn’t an issue with God. The loving development of His children is His focus.

Some might feel “religious guilt”, but not deep spiritual conviction. This isn’t the result of being born again. It’s the result of religious social pressure. This is often resisted and the couple will leave church. This couple was never truly born again.

Some might feel “religious guilt”, but not deep spiritual conviction and make “behavioral changes”. For example Muslims and cult members.

I’m sure you’ve experienced what I’m talking about. Every born again believer has. We just don’t always understand exactly what’s taking place. This process is unknown to the un-regenerated sinner. They don’t feel “conviction” like a born again believer does. This is because the born again believer has a new nature. The old nature was crucified with Christ. Here’s how Paul broke it down:

Romans 7:15-25
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Notice, Paul is describing how his behavior is such that he feels compelled to do things he hates.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Notice that Paul indicates that if he is doing what he hates, by hating it he consents to the Law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul now states that it is no longer “him” who is sinning, but the principle of sin that is present with him (that is in his flesh/mind). Why is it no longer Paul that is sinning? Because Paul has a new spiritual nature that hates sin. It’s the un-regenerated flesh that Paul is now warring against.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Paul affirms this. In his “flesh” (un-regenerated flesh) there is no good thing. To will is present with Paul due to the new nature, but how to perform that which is good, Paul can’t figure it out.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Paul goes back to his dilemma. Paul’s new nature hates the sin that he commits. This shows Paul that it isn’t him that is sinful, Paul is a new creature with a new nature trapped in an un-regenerated body, it’s the principle of sin working in his flesh that is sinful.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul, a new creature with a new nature, now finds that when he would do righteously, the principle of sin (evil) is present with him. Notice Paul doesn’t say that he himself is evil, it’s a principle at work in the flesh (his earthsuit) that he lives in down here. Paul’s regenerated inner man (mind and spirit) has a new nature that delights in the law of God. But there is another law in his flesh warring against his inner man, bringing him into bondage to the law of sin which is in his flesh.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul sees his wretched condition, but thanks God through Jesus Christ. So with the inner man Paul serves the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. The next chapter goes into allowing the Spirit of Christ to live through you for victory.

So yes, a new spiritual nature that hates sin resides in you. Sin comes natural to your flesh… but righteousness comes natural to your spirit. Now you simply have to bring the flesh into submission to that Holy Spirit in you to be whole in Christ Jesus.

When my little boy does wrong he’ll say, “I’m sorry daddy, I’m a bad boy.” That’s when I say, “No buddy, you’re just a good boy who did a bad thing.” In a way this is what we are. We have the imputed righteousness of Christ, through the Holy Spirit residing in us. We are partakers of the divine nature… new creatures. Never before Christ has their existed a creature with a divine spiritual nature in earthly sinful flesh. We are not what we were. We are righteous and holy creatures in regards to the inner man, but the flesh wars against us, and often we sin. Therefore we are saints who sin. My son can walk around on all fours and bark like a dog. That doesn’t make him a dog, he’s a human being acting like a dog. You are a saint. When you sin you’re a saint acting like a sinner, don’t let the devil tell you that you’re a filthy rotten sinner. He’s lying. That’s not your nature any more. Believe the lie that you’re just a “sinner saved by grace” and you’ll be defeated by the flesh every time. You are a saint who is saved by grace. And yes, sometimes you’re a saint who sins. But you are never not a saint. Even if you believe one can loose their salvation… you’ll still be a saint in the depths of Hell (imagine the torments of one existing in Hell knowing they are a partaker in the divine nature. What horror! The sinner doesn’t know what he’s missing….but the saint does!).

If you find your identity in Christ, die to self and effort, and allow Him to live His life out through you via the new nature imparted to you, you’ll have victory. Not a victory that you struggle to attain. But a victory that is born of being a new creature.

Problem is… most of us don’t know who we are in Christ.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I think Bro. Blume and Sam and I would all agree that it does take our decision to abide in the vine, before fruit can truly occur.


John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

I don't the point of "they were never truly saved to begin with matches this" These vines were "attached" but were thrown away and withered. At one point they were attached.

I’d compare this to the following passage:

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

The John 15 text is part of a discourse that is an answer to the question from the disciples concerning Christ revealing Himself to them and not the rest of the world. Jesus repeatedly refers to Israel as an unfruitful branch. I believe that in John 15 Christ is giving a parable regarding the nation of Israel. If they do not embrace the Gospel and produce the fruits of repentance, they will be cut off.

If the text is about individual believers we see a few things. First, it is He who cuts them off. They do not cut themselves off. Jesus will cut off all who do not bear fruit…because these are they who were not given to Him by the Father. Because Jesus specifically states that it is the Father’s will that He not lose a single soul given to Him.

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[mfblume]

Aquila and Onefaith2,

You both are saying true words. But the elements belong in proper category of understanding. The divine nature of the new creature does indeed come through IF we stay rooted in Christ. Cease praying and cease seeking Spirit leading and the flesh rises up and takes over, and we do wrong. Peter said we are partakers of the divine nature through the knowledge he provides us. There are certain ways in which the Spirit works and there are requirements for us to abide by in order for the Spirit to be able to work.