Man made standards. Who do they think they are??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Aquila why didn't you address the scriptures PO posted? A man's word surely doesn't carry more weight than the scriptures themselves. I know you better than that I think?

The reason is simple. One can post Scriptures stating that WE are to do something or admonish that WE are TO DO something. Then I could post Scripture regarding how without Christ WE CAN DO NOTHING. How if we seek to be justified by works of the Law we're fallen from grace. About walking in the flesh vs. in the Spirit and absolute surrender to God's leading, to the point of the death of self. Then all that we have is the traditional Pentecostal insanity of saying, "My Scripture cancels out your Scripture and I'm right."

The problem is... BOTH texts are right. Yes, WE are to do and be and act... but it has to be Christ acting through us, in us, and for us.... not we acting through, by, or for self.... even if it's religiously motivated.

[mfblume]

If one notices, all the responsibility we have is in the negative. Not negative in the sense of doing things we should not do, but in the sense of getting rid of and removing things from us. We cannot add anything that makes us ready for glory. God does that part. Do what we do does not save us. What He does saves us.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If one notices, all the responsibility we have is in the negative. Not negative in the sense of doing things we should not do, but in the sense of getting rid of and removing things from us. We cannot add anything that makes us ready for glory. God does that part. Do what we do does not save us. What He does saves us.

Someone bronze this! Excellent post from the gravitationally challenged brother from Canada!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If one notices, all the responsibility we have is in the negative. Not negative in the sense of doing things we should not do, but in the sense of getting rid of and removing things from us. We cannot add anything that makes us ready for glory. God does that part. Do what we do does not save us. What He does saves us.

We can't mold ourselves. I think that's the point. All we can do is surrender and rest in grace, being obedient to specific promptings of the Spirit.

For example, the smoker says, "I'm going to quit for Jesus today!" And so he quits.... then fails... determines to quit again and fails.... and quits again... and again... and again. He needs to just stop trying. He's acting in the flesh. He's doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. He has to rest in God's grace and simply surrender the control and timing of his deliverance to God praying, "Lord Jesus, set me free. Change me. Take this desire out of me." Then lay it on the altar and walk away. He might smoke for another six months. Then suddenly one day out of the blue, or perhas suddenly late at night, he'll discover that the very desire to smoke is GONE. He's been changed. Delivered. He didn't TRY. He didn't use effort. All He did was pray and surrender to the Spirit to work His work in His timing. His deliverance was God's work in Him...not His own work or effort.

Even if a man quits smoking through will power. It was an act of the flesh and is frankly rooted in self control, not Christ control.

Will power only changes one's behavior. Christ power changes one's nature.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The reason is simple. One can post Scriptures stating that WE are to do something or admonish that WE are TO DO something. Then I could post Scripture regarding how without Christ WE CAN DO NOTHING. How if we seek to be justified by works of the Law we're fallen from grace. About walking in the flesh vs. in the Spirit and absolute surrender to God's leading, to the point of the death of self. Then all that we have is the traditional Pentecostal insanity of saying, "My Scripture cancels out your Scripture and I'm right."

The problem is... BOTH texts are right. Yes, WE are to do and be and act... but it has to be Christ acting through us, in us, and for us.... not we acting through, by, or for self.... even if it's religiously motivated.

That post didn't advocate acting by self. It advocating deciding to follow the Spirit.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

That post didn't advocate acting by self. It advocating deciding to follow the Spirit.

Then where is the disagreement? lol

All that we do should be fruit of the Spirit living within us making us Christ like. Not fruits of self will, self power, or self effort to obey some legalistic law.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Then where is the disagreement? lol

All that we do should be fruit of the Spirit living within us making us Christ like. Not fruits of self will, self power, or self effort to obey some legalistic law.

Because you are saying you don't have to decide or choose to follow the Spirit. You are seemingly arguing its automatic, like we are robots programmed once saved to serve God, with no free will or choice in the matter. I argued this with you a couple days ago, remember?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Because you are saying you don't have to decide or choose to follow the Spirit. You are seemingly arguing its automatic, like we are robots programmed once saved to serve God, with no free will or choice in the matter. I argued this with you a couple days ago, remember?

Not sure if you brethren are speaking past each other or not. But, we do indeed have responsibility to follow the Spirit. What we do as we follow, though, must be understood as activities that do not save us, except acquiescing to His will in a heart decision. He, however, does the work that directly saves us. So we obey so He can save us, but our obedience is not directly the element that gets us into heaven. The direct element is the work of the cross. So, if the cross had not occurred, any act of obedience would leave us lost.

[Sam]

The purpose of the branch is to provide a place for the fruit to be displayed.
The branch does not struggle and toil to produce the fruit.
The fruit is automatically produced by the life that is flowing through and throughout the vine.
As long as the vine abides/continues in the vine, fruit will be produced.

Quite a few years ago I had a couple of tomato plants growing in amongst some flowers. I didn't really take care of them and they didn't produce any tomatoes. A neighbor was kidding me about them and said he had thought about attaching some of his tomatoes to them with clothes pins. This sound like some people who try to "attach" fruit to their lives by their own effort instead of allowing God to produce it as His life flows through them.

Galatians chapter 5 speaks of "the fruit of the Spirit" not about something that we are to artificially hang on the branches just for appearance sake.

Fruit displays that there is life in the branch and in the vine. Fruit will be apparent to the observer. If you are really attached to the vine, His life will produce fruit in your life.

Philippians 2:12-13 speaks of God working in us--both to will and to do of His pleasure. We can do, because God gives us the want to and the how to.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not sure if you brethren are speaking past each other or not. But, we do indeed have responsibility to follow the Spirit. What we do as we follow, though, must be understood as activities that do not save us, except acquiescing to His will in a heart decision. He, however, does the work that directly saves us. So we obey so He can save us, but our obedience is not directly the element that gets us into heaven. The direct element is the work of the cross. So, if the cross had not occurred, any act of obedience would leave us lost.

You said that what we do doesn't save us but then said if we obey, He saves us. So ultimately what we are doing is obeying and that is how HE saves us. Has nothing to do with what we do of ourselves. Some folks though take this to the extreme and say we do nothing to abide in the vine, and that is simply not so.