I disagree. All the gifts will operate when the ministry is balanced. I can assure you we don't major in the minor stuff at my church
You also misrepresent what Paul said. It's sad that to this day even Charismatics and Pentecostals are confused about tongues and interpretation
What Paul did NOT say was he would rather speak in a 10 words of his own than 1000 words of an interpretation
1Co 14:19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
He said he would rather speak few words of his own language than a thousand in tongues that nobody understands. Interpretation is a language we understand
1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
He isn't dismissing interpretations and he certainly did not say these only occur in churches that major on the minor
That's as bad an excuse for why the gifts are not operating in someone's church as the excuse small churches use for why they are so small being that people just don't want truth.
I believe Paul did say that, "even more to prophesy..." which in this context I also believe he is speaking of anointed preaching. I am not against T&I, I deeply desire to hear the word of the Lord.
Functionally, how much do we really see of what Paul declares "unless you bring some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching"? Further, why are tongues needed for this to happen in the church? We heard a GREAT deal of this in our church, but not much tongues.
I am not protesting "T&I", I am troubled by the lack of substance, in this area of the ministry of the church.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I believe Paul did say that, "even more to prophesy..." which in this context I also believe he is speaking of anointed preaching. I am not against T&I, I deeply desire to hear the word of the Lord.
Functionally, how much do we really see of what Paul declares "unless you bring some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching"? Further, why are tongues needed for this to happen in the church? We heard a GREAT deal of this in our church, but not much tongues.
I am not protesting "T&I", I am troubled by the lack of substance, in this area of the ministry of the church.
All we know is Tongues happen according to Paul and when Interpreted it's purpose is to edify the body. Your speculations are unscriptural
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
All we know is Tongues happen according to Paul and when Interpreted it's purpose is to edify the body. Your speculations are unscriptural
Speculations?????? My thoughts are my thoughts, just as yours are yours.
However, if you read and understand I Cor 13 & 14, it is readily clear that Paul is instructing against misuse of the gifts of the Spirit. And it is clear that he believes teaching of "substance" in the native tongue, in the church is the most profitable. No, he is not prohibiting tongues, but he clearly is placing some boundaries and order.
My posts are not just speculations, they are based squarely on the truths of Paul's teaching. So, I see your objections as mistaken.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Speculations?????? My thoughts are my thoughts, just as yours are yours.
However, if you read and understand I Cor 13 & 14, it is readily clear that Paul is instructing against misuse of the gifts of the Spirit. And it is clear that he believes teaching of "substance" in the native tongue, in the church is the most profitable. No, he is not prohibiting tongues, but he clearly is placing some boundaries and order.
My posts are not just speculations, they are based squarely on the truths of Paul's teaching. So, I see your objections as mistaken.
Are there two threads with the same name?
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Speculations?????? My thoughts are my thoughts, just as yours are yours.
However, if you read and understand I Cor 13 & 14, it is readily clear that Paul is instructing against misuse of the gifts of the Spirit. And it is clear that he believes teaching of "substance" in the native tongue, in the church is the most profitable. No, he is not prohibiting tongues, but he clearly is placing some boundaries and order.
My posts are not just speculations, they are based squarely on the truths of Paul's teaching. So, I see your objections as mistaken.
I didn't refer to posts, I referred to your assertion that T&I mostly occur in churches where ministry majors on the minor...not one verse to support that
And you added "I believe this deep longing came because of a lack of deep expository preaching that satisfies the spiritually hunger of believer"
Not "The bible says" but "I believe"...sounds like speculation to me
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
I didn't refer to posts, I referred to your assertion that T&I mostly occur in churches where ministry majors on the minor...not one verse to support that
And you added "I believe this deep longing came because of a lack of deep expository preaching that satisfies the spiritually hunger of believer"
Not "The bible says" but "I believe"...sounds like speculation to me
I can speak the truth form experience and understanding, without quoting scripture. If all you know is a scientific understanding of the scripture, you will never "know" God.
You are still taking the statement out of context, I did not say it should be that way, I said is happens. Nor do I particularly see this use of T&I as inspired. Your argument completely misses the point, but hey, you refuse to understand.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I can speak the truth form experience and understanding, without quoting scripture. If all you know is a scientific understanding of the scripture, you will never "know" God.
You are still taking the statement out of context, I did not say it should be that way, I said is happens. Nor do I particularly see this use of T&I as inspired. Your argument completely misses the point, but hey, you refuse to understand.
That is just like your UR doctrine, based on subjective reasoning and not objective evidence.
Scientific? I asked for SCRIPTURES lol not science. ROFL. BTW You just judged me. How do you know I don't already know God? I know Him. KNOW is not an emotion. It's Intellect. I can READ His word because He gave me an Intellect to KNOW Him. I can talk to him too, not just sit there and be happy or sad in fits of emotional highs and lows. I use what God gave me, a brain
Truth is not a subjective emotion. 1+1 is true, not because you feel like it is true. God is real. He lives. He is True. I can know what His word says by my intellect. If you approach His word by your own feelings then you are subject to read into what the word says what you are predispositioned to feel
You made a valuation. You said "Much of the desire for T&I comes when the ministry is majoring in the minors, and not presenting deep spiritual and practical truths. The folks get restless and hungry for what God desires."
The opposite might be true. The desire might come from a ministry that is balanced and a ministry that is balanced promotes everything scripturally for the church including the fruit and the gifts.
Then you added "I believe"...That sounds like your opinion. That sounds like you are speculating. You don't have scripture to back that up. You have your opinion, how you feel on the matter, what you "think".
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
That is just like your UR doctrine, based on subjective reasoning and not objective evidence.
Scientific? I asked for SCRIPTURES lol not science. ROFL. BTW You just judged me. How do you know I don't already know God? I know Him. KNOW is not an emotion. It's Intellect. I can READ His word because He gave me an Intellect to KNOW Him. I can talk to him too, not just sit there and be happy or sad in fits of emotional highs and lows. I use what God gave me, a brain
Truth is not a subjective emotion. 1+1 is true, not because you feel like it is true. God is real. He lives. He is True. I can know what His word says by my intellect. If you approach His word by your own feelings then you are subject to read into what the word says what you are predispositioned to feel
You made a valuation. You said "Much of the desire for T&I comes when the ministry is majoring in the minors, and not presenting deep spiritual and practical truths. The folks get restless and hungry for what God desires."
The opposite might be true. The desire might come from a ministry that is balanced and a ministry that is balanced promotes everything scripturally for the church including the fruit and the gifts.
Then you added "I believe"...That sounds like your opinion. That sounds like you are speculating. You don't have scripture to back that up. You have your opinion, how you feel on the matter, what you "think".
"If all you know is a scientific understanding of the scripture, you will never "know" God."
Knowing God most definitely includes the emotions and spirit of humans. That is the exact point I was making. "...the letter kills, it is the spirit that makes alive..." It is not either or it is both!!!
Are you an engineer or an accountant? LOL
I did not judge you, maybe you judged yourself? Based on the bolded, in your quotes above, who is judging who?
The opposite certainly is true in very many contexts, but it was NOT true in the context that I was referencing.
Of course it is my opinion, based on my knowledge and experience. You quote a lot of scripture, you readily apply YOUR opinions and YOUR understanding of what certain scriptures mean. This is a discussion, I will post scripture and my opinions as I choose, you can choose to engage my posts or not.
You would do well to engage the discussion, voicing your opinions and quoting scripture, but tone way down on the attack mode. We are friends here and should carry on as such. You have good opinions and understanding to share, but quite frankly you cause your audience to be very hesitate to receive some of your contributions.
This is my opinion and my observations, you may do with it what you will.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Hybrid Mode
