C.H. Spurgeon: Baptist Preacher on the Holy Spirit

deltaguitar · #1 08-03-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austin

I see. So, is calvinism in your opinion something to the effect; God chose who he would save and chose who he would not save sometime in the past?

Oversimplified but yes. What you posted is not calvinism but the doctrine of election and predestination.

I believe that there is an elect chosen before the foundation of the world who were bought and paid for by the blood of Christ and given by the Father. All that were given by the Father WILL come to Christ by the power of holy spirit and persevere to the end and will be given a glorified body.

onefaith2 · #2 08-03-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Oversimplified but yes. What you posted is not calvinism but the doctrine of election and predestination.

I believe that there is an elect chosen before the foundation of the world who were bought and paid for by the blood of Christ and given by the Father. All that were given by the Father WILL come to Christ by the power of holy spirit and persevere to the end and will be given a glorified body.

What you describe can also be known as foreknowledge in Arminianism.

deltaguitar · #3 08-03-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2

What you describe can also be known as foreknowledge in Arminianism.

Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace

onefaith2 · #4 08-03-2011, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenient_grace

I referred to Foreknowledge, not Prevenient Grace.

Orthodoxy · #5 08-03-2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I referred to Foreknowledge, not Prevenient Grace.

Arminians say that God knew who would choose receive salvation, and then chose them on the basis of that knowledge. [Synergism]

Calvinists say that God "knew" someone in the biblical sense (i.e. loved them intimately), and then chose to regenerate their hearts without any basis in whether or not they would have chosen him. [Monergism]

There is a difference in how foreknowledge is defined.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...onergism2.html

onefaith2 · #6 08-03-2011, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

Arminians say that God knew who would choose receive salvation, and then chose them on the basis of that knowledge. [Synergism]

Calvinists say that God "knew" someone in the biblical sense (i.e. loved them intimately), and then chose to regenerate their hearts without any basis in whether or not they would have chosen him. [Monergism]

There is a difference in how foreknowledge is defined.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshol...onergism2.html

How does the bible define foreknowledge?

Here's an interesting note

For if God knows what I will do, it must be certain that I am going to do it. If it were not certain, God could not know it; He might be mistaken (I might act differently from what He expects). But if what I will do is certain, then surely I will do it, whether or not I know what I will do. It will happen!

http://www.icstc.com/bg/will/fore.html

another

Some Calvinists have tried to use this to argue that 'foreknow' necessarily implies a relationship, in that the other Jews 'knew' Paul as a friend before he was saved. But the passage can just as easily mean that they knew all about Paul. Not really proof for the monergsitic interpretation.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

Now this provides a bit better evidence. The word is not just 'foreknow,' but 'foreknowledge' (Greek: Prognosis). A major difficulty for the Calvinist view of election according to forelove instead of foreknowledge is that the Greek word for 'knowledge' (gnosis) is not used to indicate love, friendship, or special preference. The words that make up Prognosis are 'pro,' a primary preposition that is used as a suffix to mean 'before,' and 'gnosis,' which simply means 'knowledge' (intelligence, advanced understanding, wisdom, etc.). Prognosis even survives today in the English language, carrying an identical definition. So it is then rather a futile effort to attempt to re-interpret election according to the prognosis of God into election according to the forelove of God.

http://www.indeathorlife.org/soterio...word-usage.php

Godsdrummer · #7 08-04-2011, 07:26 AM

Just have to get into the mix here, as none of it matters one way or another. When are we going to get it, God is God, he knows everything, of course he knows if you are going to go to heaven or not. That does not mean he predestend you!

Further why do we get hung up in the ideas of history today, those ideas do not count for a hill of beans. They may have worked for them then. That does not mean we don't have a better understanding of things today. What one beleives today may have some Calvins ideas that does not make him a calvinist. We are too quick to label others and then fellowship them or disfellowship them upon that label.

Just like PP or FP within the teachings there are many differances between each.

Bottom line salvation come by faith in the work of Christ on the cross, the depth of the move of the spirit depends upon the depth each individual takes thier salvation in relatinship with God.

Further God predestined all men to be saved. Whether we are saved or not has nothing to do with the forknowladge of God its all on you my friend, no matter what Calvin or any other taught in times past.

Carry on