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View Poll Results: Is the bible infallible?
The bible is infallible, perfect and consistent. 16 66.67%
The bible is true but inconsistent and needs to be reconciled. 6 25.00%
The bible is a good book, but has errors. 2 8.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 01-03-2012, 09:49 AM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Did Paul think of it as double-natured? He said you are saved by faith and not by works.
yes; and also that your works are evidence. "This doesn't save you, but if you don't have this, you are lost."
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:07 AM
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

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Originally Posted by bbyrd009 View Post
yes; and also that your works are evidence. "This doesn't save you, but if you don't have this, you are lost."
Yes, see? There! It is always possible to reconcile "apparent" contradictions!
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:20 AM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Yes, see? There! It is always possible to reconcile "apparent" contradictions!
Ha, I see this "works" thing endlessly debated, "do you need works to be saved," etc. Personally, I never saw a contradiction, even as a neo; "faith w/o works is dead" how simple can it be?
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:28 AM
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

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Originally Posted by bbyrd009 View Post
Ha, I see this "works" thing endlessly debated, "do you need works to be saved," etc. Personally, I never saw a contradiction, even as a neo; "faith w/o works is dead" how simple can it be?
There's a more explicit apparent contradiction than just that.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:34 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Is The Bible Infallible?

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
There's a more explicit apparent contradiction than just that.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. "
Here's the thing though, Timmy. James is not talking about JUSTIFICATION FROM SIN. James is using justification in terms of "showing something", which is the first definition below.

jus·ti·fy   [juhs-tuh-fahy] Show IPA verb, -fied, -fy·ing.
verb (used with object)
1. to show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right: The end does not always justify the means.
2.to defend or uphold as warranted or well-grounded: Don't try to justify his rudeness.
3.Theology . to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.
4.Printing .
a.
to make (a line of type) a desired length by spacing the words and letters, especially so that full lines in a column have even margins both on the left and on the right.
b.
to level and square (a strike).

James is saying Abraham proved (showed) his faith by what he did. Thus, his action justified his faith. Justification in this sense is the act of showing something.

Consider the pharisees in the days of John the baptist:

Luke 7
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Notice, in this case, the pharisees could claim to know God all they want, but by rejecting being baptized of John, they obviously did not know God. How do we know the pharisees rejected the counsel of God? (we can't see their heart) By refusing to be baptized of John, they were rejecting God.

God sees the faith in your heart. You (as a person) see your faith by your works. Your work proves your faith, that's all James was saying.

So today, if you claim you know Jesus Christ, but you do NOT keep his commandment, then obviously, your works prove that you do NOT have faith in Jesus. Simple. So what is his commandment?

I John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

On the other hand, Paul (using Justification) is saying that your faith in Jesus is what puts you in right standing before God. The use of Justification in this sense is the third definition given above.

Now, how do you prove that faith? By repenting towards God and being baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. Simple

Another mistake people make is that they cannot differentiate the meaning of "WORKS" when Paul uses and "WORKS" when James using it.
James uses WORKS as a fruit of something (Like Jesus said, by their fruit, ye shall know them). That is the sense in which James is using the word WORKS.

Paul uses it primarily as WORKS of the LAW. The Jews thought they were in right standing with God because they were DOING the WORKS of the Law. They thought the WORKS made them righteous.

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Let's not make the mistake that just because they (Paul and James) both use the words "justify" and "works", they are talking about the same thing.

To prove that Paul AGREES with James, consider this:

Rom 6
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Paul is telling us how to live after knowing Christ. In other words, now that you have put your faith in Jesus Christ, live like those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ. (Sound similar to Faith without works is dead? you betcha...)
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