What Must I Do To Be Saved?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I am happy I was raised in a holiness church in my youth I recieved a love for holiness and separation it has not been a burden to me. I am happy being Apostolic.

I have heard my parents and grandparents talk about some of the older standards that were had (hose, shoes, wearing red, radios, etc.). Many things have changed with time. However, many of the basics that influenced the men of God at that time are still valid today.

I grew up in what would have been a moderate house in a more conservative age, but by the time I hit my early twenties, we were one of the most conservative churches that I knew. I grew up believing in holiness, and as I sought after the things of God, I began to see what He did and did not approve. I fell in love with the doctrine of separation and distinction, and I have no desire to depart from it.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jay

I grew up believing in holiness, and as I sought after the things of God, I began to see what He did and did not approve. I fell in love with the doctrine of separation and distinction, and I have no desire to depart from it.

That is wonderful Jay! Having your convictions for separation and distinction is wonderful. Do it unto the Lord. But don't condemn someone else who may not see eye to eye with you. You may be a "vegetarian" and feel like you can eat no meat at all (referring here to Paul's comparison in Romans) and your friend across town in another church may feel completely free to eat meat.


Romans 14:2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

That is wonderful Jay! Having your convictions for separation and distinction is wonderful. Do it unto the Lord. But don't condemn someone else who may not see eye to eye with you. You may be a "vegetarian" and feel like you can eat no meat at all (referring here to Paul's comparison in Romans) and your friend across town in another church may feel completely free to eat meat.


Romans 14:2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

I do not view Romans 14 as an appropriate chapter for discussing the relaxation of standards, as he is expressing opposition to their eating meats offered unto idols (if I remember my passage correctly). That was one of the first standards initiated into the church, and that is documented in the book of Acts.

As for the rest, the Bible is abundantly clear that the Church doe not look, act, talk, sing, pray, dress, or in any other way resemble the world.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Jay

I do not view Romans 14 as an appropriate chapter for discussing the relaxation of standards, as he is expressing opposition to their eating meats offered unto idols (if I remember my passage correctly). That was one of the first standards initiated into the church, and that is documented in the book of Acts.

As for the rest, the Bible is abundantly clear that the Church doe not look, act, talk, sing, pray, dress, or in any other way resemble the world.

Our women are the perfect picture of the 1930's housewife. Our men look just like everybody else.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Jay

I do not view Romans 14 as an appropriate chapter for discussing the relaxation of standards, as he is expressing opposition to their eating meats offered unto idols (if I remember my passage correctly). That was one of the first standards initiated into the church, and that is documented in the book of Acts..

Jay, see the word highlighted in your statement - standards... exactly my point. You are trying to skirt the issue by saying this doesn't apply to you, but it does. If those things were their standards then, and there were differences of opinion back then, then we understand that Paul was trying to make something clear... do NOT judge your brother to be any less or more holy than yourself because of the "standard" he lives by.

Get my drift? It DOES apply to you and me today. The principle of what he was teaching still applies. You eat no meat, fine. I eat all meat, fine. You dress according to a certain set of standards, fine. I feel no compulsion to live by your standards, and live by the ones God gave me.. fine! Let's NOT judge one another.

That is my point! Our standards or convictions are for each of us individually, not corporately, and the more important thing at stake is - do you have love one for your brother who may not agree or do things as you do? Do you love your brother who wears a beard, or shorts or maybe even smokes.... do you love a sister who cuts her hair, and wears jewelry? Could you be eating no "meat" and thinking you are more holy than those who believe it is okay to partake of the "meat" with the principle of the verse being applied here.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I think this scripture is one of the scriptures that speaks loudest against the clothing holiness standard movement in all the Bible - here is a new commandment given by Jesus to love one another, and BY THIS LOVE shall men know ye are my disciples, (notice he didn't say standards of separation!!!) His highest standard was love, not clothing!

Originally Posted by Jay

As for the rest, the Bible is abundantly clear that the Church doe not look, act, talk, sing, pray, dress, or in any other way resemble the world.

Jay, could you please answer these next two questions for me. Thanks.

One: Can you give me a scripture that equates holiness, and SALVATION with clothing?

Two: Who is the world?

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Jay, see the word highlighted in your statement - standards... exactly my point. You are trying to skirt the issue by saying this doesn't apply to you, but it does. If those things were their standards then, and there were differences of opinion back then, then we understand that Paul was trying to make something clear... do NOT judge your brother to be any less or more holy than yourself because of the "standard" he lives by.

Get my drift? It DOES apply to you and me today. The principle of what he was teaching still applies. You eat no meat, fine. I eat all meat, fine. You dress according to a certain set of standards, fine. I feel no compulsion to live by your standards, and live by the ones God gave me.. fine! Let's NOT judge one another.

That is my point! Our standards or convictions are for each of us individually, not corporately, and the more important thing at stake is - do you have love one for your brother who may not agree or do things as you do? Do you love your brother who wears a beard, or shorts or maybe even smokes.... do you love a sister who cuts her hair, and wears jewelry? Could you be eating no "meat" and thinking you are more holy than those who believe it is okay to partake of the "meat" with the principle of the verse being applied here.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I think this scripture is one of the scriptures that speaks loudest against the clothing holiness standard movement in all the Bible - here is a new commandment given by Jesus to love one another, and BY THIS LOVE shall men know ye are my disciples, (notice he didn't say standards of separation!!!) His highest standard was love, not clothing!



Jay, could you please answer these next two questions for me. Thanks.

One: Can you give me a scripture that equates holiness, and SALVATION with clothing?

Two: Who is the world?

No, but there is scripture regarding modest dress and gender identity. Therefore such issues should indeed be deemed important scripturally. The Holy Spirit directs us and guides us two main ways individually and collectively. Pastors are directed by the Holy Spirit to teach and guide by example their members. Standards can therefore be set by the pastors as long as there is biblical reasoning behind them, and as long as those standards don't replace the plan of salvation. Those under that pastor are to be obedient out of love and out of a desire to serve God.

Anyway... dressing "holy" really has nothing to do with holiness.

HOWEVER!!!!! How you dress is a representation of a.) your God, b.) your church, c.) yourself. And yes it does have an impact on the Kingdom of God.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

Anyway... dressing "holy" really has nothing to do with holiness.

HOWEVER!!!!! How you dress is a representation of a.) your God, b.) your church, c.) yourself. And yes it does have an impact on the Kingdom of God.

Agreed on that point! Holiness is of the heart and of your spirit, and your outward man will then express that holiness.

The cart has gotten ahead of the horse. Holiness of the heart first, and then holiness of the outward appearance will follow, as the SPIRIT of God convicts, not necessarily a particular preacher or organization.

A heart seeking after the holiness of God will manifest itself on the outside with the appropriate modest clothing.

But there is no specific scripture in the whole Bible - that I can find at least - and apparently no one else can either - that equates salvation, and/or holiness with clothing.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

No, but there is scripture regarding modest dress and gender identity. Therefore such issues should indeed be deemed important scripturally. The Holy Spirit directs us and guides us two main ways individually and collectively. Pastors are directed by the Holy Spirit to teach and guide by example their members. Standards can therefore be set by the pastors as long as there is biblical reasoning behind them, and as long as those standards don't replace the plan of salvation. Those under that pastor are to be obedient out of love and out of a desire to serve God.

Anyway... dressing "holy" really has nothing to do with holiness.

HOWEVER!!!!! How you dress is a representation of a.) your God, b.) your church, c.) yourself. And yes it does have an impact on the Kingdom of God.

Hmm, and here I thought we were to run from traditions of men, being as how we're told that they'll end up replacing the message of salvation (just like it's doing here!). But I see that many Christians put themselves "under a pastor," prolly erroneously equating that with a Shepherd?

"Have no thought for what you will wear" gets put on a shelf here, IMO, so that you can institute a tradition.

What one wears has absolutely no impact on the Kingdom of God, and don't let anyone ever tell you different. GOD says "have no thought for what you will wear," which, if you will allow me, may be translated "Run from well-meaning people who even pay any attention to things of this nature. RUN."

David served God naked; wonder how long he might last in your "churches?"

Ps, I also agree with you! All the way up to the "by example" part.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

No, but there is scripture regarding modest dress and gender identity. Therefore such issues should indeed be deemed important scripturally. The Holy Spirit directs us and guides us two main ways individually and collectively. Pastors are directed by the Holy Spirit to teach and guide by example their members. Standards can therefore be set by the pastors as long as there is biblical reasoning behind them, and as long as those standards don't replace the plan of salvation. Those under that pastor are to be obedient out of love and out of a desire to serve God.

Anyway... dressing "holy" really has nothing to do with holiness.

HOWEVER!!!!! How you dress is a representation of a.) your God, b.) your church, c.) yourself. And yes it does have an impact on the Kingdom of God.

Ok, but I see how "have no thought to what you will wear" is really saying "don't worry about not having nice clothes," and can possibly be overstretched here, in light of the scriptures directing "proper" attire; so I'll say that I agree with

"Anyway... dressing "holy" really has nothing to do with holiness.

HOWEVER!!!!! How you dress is a representation of...c.) yourself..."

too, and rather than agree with you in a raised voice, I'd like to just say that clothing should never even come up, as those wishing to emulate someone demonstrating "life more abundantly" (which is surely you demonstrating) should copy your dress code from a desire to imitate, and not from a directive, yes? I'll read some more on these "dress code directives," and (only) dimly appreciate what a pastor might face in this regard-I'd also appreciate some scripture?

My feeling is that anyone a pastor might feel needs a discussion on proper dress in church really has other issues that should be addressed? Maybe? And ty.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

This is very true. What is/was old is now new again, or will be soon.

By the way, the gun not withstanding, how would you know these guys were, or were not, UPC?

I thought that was funny. The guy on the left does not have a collar that I have seen on any Pentecostal preacher, but as I have not seen them all, I could not say for sure. Btw, he is a little to lax with that gun, but otherwise looks like a couple of Pentecostal men.

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

Jesus... I just highlighted everything that I've done on this list.
I'm goin straight to Hell...

Anyway. The Bible says you must be born again. We throw the baby out with the bath water to our own damnation. No, man made standards can't condemn you to Hell as much as they can't save you.

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE football, I go to my old high school's games, go to college games, go to pro games, and play it in my liesure time, etc. I have a TV, but don't watch it much and it stays on CNN (yes I do have personal convictions about watching what I watch). I watch movies. I wear shorts.

Just because WE (those who have been born again) have those liberties, does not mean that we neglect the born again process.

There is only one way to see and enter the Kingdom of God. That is to be born again of the water and of the spirit. I still maintain that there is only one way to be saved: repentence, water baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin, and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost which will subsequently cause the believer to live a holy and sanctified life pleasing to the Lord God free from the bondage of SIN (not standards).

Just because you can wear pants and make it to heaven doesn't mean you can cheat God of what he requires. You have to deal with the issue of sin before you can make it in.

Actually, I know of a very few who would have banned everything on that list. Most would have actually have had a problem with a portion of it. There were some things on here that I have never heard anyone preach against.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Jay, see the word highlighted in your statement - standards... exactly my point. You are trying to skirt the issue by saying this doesn't apply to you, but it does. If those things were their standards then, and there were differences of opinion back then, then we understand that Paul was trying to make something clear... do NOT judge your brother to be any less or more holy than yourself because of the "standard" he lives by.

Get my drift? It DOES apply to you and me today. The principle of what he was teaching still applies. You eat no meat, fine. I eat all meat, fine. You dress according to a certain set of standards, fine. I feel no compulsion to live by your standards, and live by the ones God gave me.. fine! Let's NOT judge one another.

That is my point! Our standards or convictions are for each of us individually, not corporately, and the more important thing at stake is - do you have love one for your brother who may not agree or do things as you do? Do you love your brother who wears a beard, or shorts or maybe even smokes.... do you love a sister who cuts her hair, and wears jewelry? Could you be eating no "meat" and thinking you are more holy than those who believe it is okay to partake of the "meat" with the principle of the verse being applied here.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I think this scripture is one of the scriptures that speaks loudest against the clothing holiness standard movement in all the Bible - here is a new commandment given by Jesus to love one another, and BY THIS LOVE shall men know ye are my disciples, (notice he didn't say standards of separation!!!) His highest standard was love, not clothing!



Jay, could you please answer these next two questions for me. Thanks.

One: Can you give me a scripture that equates holiness, and SALVATION with clothing?

Two: Who is the world?

Actually, they established a standard to be followed by all members of all churches concerning the eating of meat offered to idols.

I will cite that the Bible defines what is seen when one is not modestly closed.

Last, the world is everyone who has not repented of their sins, been baptized in Jesus' name, received the Holy Ghost, and is not living a life of holiness. This list also includes all who have backslidden. None of these are optional. If a person is missing one of them (new converts do not count as they are the same as a baby in the knowledge of the things of God) they are lost.

There are many people who are somewhere in the process, and God will judge them, but this is what the Bible has said.