Except when those standards are what God wants. Right?
...rather than the death-centered approach that your Q intimates. "What you are doing is bad" becomes of no effect against "What you are doing is good."
Well, to me that Q sounds like "except when those standards lead to life." I've realized that if I leave your personal choices up to you, and conform mine to God's desire, "life, more abundantly," while encouraging those choices in you that also lead to this life, and basically ignoring anything that, by this model, should die on its own, then I begin to grasp effectively the intent of your Q.
That almost makes sense. Trouble is when folks start trying to figure out what God's desires for them are. Sometimes, they use reason and logic, and come up with some reasonable theories. Sometimes, they kill people.
But nobody who claims God does talk to people can complain. Especially when they talk about "flawed human thinking" and say "God's ways are not our ways". And especially when they actually believe precedents like Abraham being commanded to kill his son. (If God stopped Abe, would He always stop everyone He commanded to kill? He didn't stop the Israelite armies.)
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
That almost makes sense. Trouble is when folks start trying to figure out what God's desires for them are. Sometimes, they use reason and logic, and come up with some reasonable theories. Sometimes, they kill people.
But nobody who claims God does talk to people can complain. Especially when they talk about "flawed human thinking" and say "God's ways are not our ways". And especially when they actually believe precedents like Abraham being commanded to kill his son. (If God stopped Abe, would He always stop everyone He commanded to kill? He didn't stop the Israelite armies.)
These troubles will always occur when people don't personally rely on God, and instead attempt to use their reason and logic in politicized hierarchies, inevitably attempting to play God on everyone else. If you learn anything from this, it should be that you can't outlaw anything effectively, or effectively vote any Law of God, and the answer lies elsewhere.
God "didn't stop the Israelite armies" in a completely different scenario, wherein He was a sovereign exercising power, and offering no choice to His soldiers; Abraham had to choose, is the point there.
Last edited by bbyrd009; 01-13-2012 at 12:18 PM.
Reason: add
The reason that we get so many of the same people in office is that they are the one's with the experience handling the situation.
I hear people disliking the money that is currently in political campaigns. My solution would be that a candidate must spend only his own personal money to run for public office. Others might spend money on his behalf, but no one is allowed to give him money. I would also cut the pay by 1/3, cut the pension by 1/2, and eliminate their healthcare package. This would cut the greedy moneygrubbers interest in the system, and possibly allow for a better breed of politician.
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I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
These troubles will always occur when people don't personally rely on God, and instead attempt to use their reason and logic in politicized hierarchies, inevitably attempting to play God on everyone else. If you learn anything from this, it should be that you can't outlaw anything effectively, or effectively vote any Law of God, and the answer lies elsewhere.
God "didn't stop the Israelite armies" in a completely different scenario, wherein He was a sovereign exercising power, and offering no choice to His soldiers; Abraham had to choose, is the point there.
Abe could have chosen to disobey, but the armies could not have?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Yes, as far as that goes. You see a flaw here? You seem to be comparing apples to oranges here, but maybe I'm missing your point.
Abe could no more choose to disobey than the armies could, in another sense.
In the only sense, seems to me. Someone gets a command from God. They can obey, or they can disobey, no matter who it is. There may be consequences for disobedience, and they may even be different consequences for the different people. Doesn't matter.
But yeah, that wasn't my point, anyway. My point was there is precedent (lots of it) for God giving orders to kill people. Some have gotten such orders in modern times, and nobody that believes the Bible can prove that God didn't give those orders. Trying to say that was the OT doesn't work. God is sovereign, and He could give whatever orders He wants to, for whatever reason He has. He has killed in the NT, so why wouldn't He command someone to kill for Him?
Again, that's from the point of view of someone who believes that God actually talks to people, and tells them to do things. It's a dangerous thing to believe.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
My point was there is precedent (lots of it) for God giving orders to kill people. Some have gotten such orders in modern times, and nobody that believes the Bible can prove that God didn't give those orders. Trying to say that was the OT doesn't work. God is sovereign, and He could give whatever orders He wants to, for whatever reason He has. He has killed in the NT, so why wouldn't He command someone to kill for Him?
Again, that's from the point of view of someone who believes that God actually talks to people, and tells them to do things. It's a dangerous thing to believe.
Well, the NT killings do show parallels with the OT, or "under the Law" argument, and I might argue that they occurred as "types," so that we may see more fully "a sin without forgiveness" or something...but I would find it hard to believe that killing from God would occur in this dispensation? After Christ came and showed literally the opposite? Make that impossible to believe.
That God is perfect is essentially not understandable with our minds, also, so really, how far do you need to go down this path to trust God? My point being that either God tells people to kill today, or prolly not, and they are deluded; and God killed people in the past, and made a record of it, for you to assimilate.
Last edited by bbyrd009; 01-14-2012 at 12:11 PM.
Reason: add
I recommend The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd on this topic.
An excellent book; listening to all these "Christian" voters, i was beginning to wonder if I was losing my mind...
"...Jesus 3 times refers to Satan as 'the ruler of this world'...The term 'ruler' (arche) was a political term used to denote the highest ruling authority in a given region-and Jesus applied it to Satan over the whole world! Functionally, Satan is the acting CEO of all earthly governments. Paul agrees..." (pp. 21-22, paperback)
And I'd like to suggest once again that any vote is a vote for Satan. The moment you register to vote, you must acknowledge as a Christian that you are participating in a farce, on the one hand or the other.
Trouble is when folks start trying to figure out what God's desires for them are. Sometimes, they use reason and logic, and come up with some reasonable theories. Sometimes, they kill people. 
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