Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

If human life starts at conception why is it not customary to have funerals and memorial services for miscarriages?

Also, if human life really begins at conception then why aren't names given before birth?

Also, why is it that not one society has ever counted abortion to be equal with murder?

Could it be that deep down people feel the unborn is something different than the born?

In my opinion if you want to eliminate abortion then you are going to have to make people really believe that there is no difference between the unborn and the born. You are going to have to start giving names as soon as pregnancy is confirmed. You are going to have to start holding burial services for unborns. So here's the problem, Christians want everyone to act like unborns are people when it comes to abortion but they haven't been acting like unborns are people in any way for 2000 years and have only actually been equating abortion to murder for maybe the last 100 years.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

If human life starts at conception why is it not customary to have funerals and memorial services for miscarriages?

They sometimes are and many times there is no funeral for adults. Funerals are a social custom (and a huge business) driven by the need to say goodbye to a loved one. Since no one but the mother has met the child inside her she usually chooses to grieve privately or alone with her husband.

Originally Posted by jfrog

Also, if human life really begins at conception then why aren't names given before birth?

Where have you been froggy? Invitations to baby showers now come with baby names! However, since we culturally choose names to reflect gender most couples keep two choices and only choose once gender is known at about 16 weeks. Many more however choose gender neutral names and give them as soon as they know they are pregnant sometimes changing spelling for boy/girl.

Originally Posted by jfrog

Also, why is it that not one society has ever counted abortion to be equal with murder?

Simply not true.

Originally Posted by jfrog

Could it be that deep down people feel the unborn is something different than the born?

I think people outside the immediate family feel less attached to the unborn because they have not seen them. Some people have a hard time with God for the same reason.

Originally Posted by jfrog

In my opinion if you want to eliminate abortion then you are going to have to make people really believe that there is no difference between the unborn and the born. You are going to have to start giving names as soon as pregnancy is confirmed. You are going to have to start holding burial services for unborns. So here's the problem, Christians want everyone to act like unborns are people when it comes to abortion but they haven't been acting like unborns are people in any way for 2000 years and have only actually been equating abortion to murder for maybe the last 100 years.

Legal abortion has made an 'in your face' proposition of what was once a private matter between a woman and her doctor. Political candidates are elected or not based on their stance for or against it. Before abortion was legal procedures were done that were technically the same thing, however they were done for medical reasons. There were (and still are) also abortion practitioners who were unlicensed and served prostitutes and other women in cities. So there have always been ways that some women could get an abortion... It is still much the same today. Our million plus elective TOPs are still going to women in urban areas while those who live rurally often do not have a provider of abortion services for hundreds of miles. Because of the stigma of 'legal' abortions most regular gyns will not terminate a pregnancy even for medical reasons but refer to an abortion provider unless there is a fetal demise. The whole thing has become quite a mess that may never be resolved until Jesus comes back.

Unfortunately it is a mess in a way that does not well serve women on either end. The scales of balance have tipped far right and left on this issue... it would be nice to see them level off awhile. Try just a minute to see other points here and be open to them. Of course the ' a woman should be willing to die to give life ' stance always makes me want to tip the scale the other way by just denying a fetus is human. But now I've come to a place where I feel I can be more honest with myself and say; 'yes a fetus is human and there are circumstances when a mothers life/health/sanity trump that fetuses right to live.' That allows me to see many abortions as wrong and a few as right without denial or a mental snow storm.

Not necessarily trying to change your mind frog, it seems pretty made up... but just saying there may be other information you want to consider before you try to change someone else;

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

They sometimes are and many times there is no funeral for adults. Funerals are a social custom (and a huge business) driven by the need to say goodbye to a loved one. Since no one but the mother has met the child inside her she usually chooses to grieve privately or alone with her husband.

Where have you been froggy? Invitations to baby showers now come with baby names! However, since we culturally choose names to reflect gender most couples keep two choices and only choose once gender is known at about 16 weeks. Many more however choose gender neutral names and give them as soon as they know they are pregnant sometimes changing spelling for boy/girl.

Simply not true.

I think people outside the immediate family feel less attached to the unborn because they have not seen them. Some people have a hard time with God for the same reason.



Legal abortion has made an 'in your face' proposition of what was once a private matter between a woman and her doctor. Political candidates are elected or not based on their stance for or against it. Before abortion was legal procedures were done that were technically the same thing, however they were done for medical reasons. There were (and still are) also abortion practitioners who were unlicensed and served prostitutes and other women in cities. So there have always been ways that some women could get an abortion... It is still much the same today. Our million plus elective TOPs are still going to women in urban areas while those who live rurally often do not have a provider of abortion services for hundreds of miles. Because of the stigma of 'legal' abortions most regular gyns will not terminate a pregnancy even for medical reasons but refer to an abortion provider unless there is a fetal demise. The whole thing has become quite a mess that may never be resolved until Jesus comes back.

Unfortunately it is a mess in a way that does not well serve women on either end. The scales of balance have tipped far right and left on this issue... it would be nice to see them level off awhile. Try just a minute to see other points here and be open to them. Of course the ' a woman should be willing to die to give life ' stance always makes me want to tip the scale the other way by just denying a fetus is human. But now I've come to a place where I feel I can be more honest with myself and say; 'yes a fetus is human and there are circumstances when a mothers life/health/sanity trump that fetuses right to live.' That allows me to see many abortions as wrong and a few as right without denial or a mental snow storm.

Not necessarily trying to change your mind frog, it seems pretty made up... but just saying there may be other information you want to consider before you try to change someone else;

Interesting points.

Having served in the military as a medic and having had to decide when to let my mother go after medical staff felt little more could be done unless she stablized... I've come to realize that people make life and death decisions every day. Some are very painful and frankly... the government has no right to meddle in such matters. I fear the governemnt more than I fear freedom of choice. Because at least the choice of abortion is in the hands of each and every individual woman. Change hearts and minds... we save lives. Address issues women face... we save lives. However... using the police power of government to decide when your wife is justified to have an abortion is a bit disturbing to me. Because if it's an election year... they might just let her suffer and die on the table before granting her permission to terminate the pregnancy. Just bothers me. Should me and a spouse face a situation wherein terminating the pregnancy was strongly advised as a course of action... it would be a very dark and painful day. And the choice of what to do next would be handled with much prayer and mutual support. And ultimately that choice should rest in our hands... not the governments.

Abortion will never go away. And banning abortion will never resolve the issues that women face that help drive them to the decision to abort. And... after 30 years of protests and political football.. it's evident politics will not change the issue. We need to geet down to social policy. Get down on our hands and knees... get dirty... spend money... and help women.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

If human life starts at conception why is it not customary to have funerals and memorial services for miscarriages?

Also, if human life really begins at conception then why aren't names given before birth?

Also, why is it that not one society has ever counted abortion to be equal with murder?

Could it be that deep down people feel the unborn is something different than the born?

In my opinion if you want to eliminate abortion then you are going to have to make people really believe that there is no difference between the unborn and the born. You are going to have to start giving names as soon as pregnancy is confirmed. You are going to have to start holding burial services for unborns. So here's the problem, Christians want everyone to act like unborns are people when it comes to abortion but they haven't been acting like unborns are people in any way for 2000 years and have only actually been equating abortion to murder for maybe the last 100 years.

Heard of it many times, and have a couple friends who did name the child and have a service for the child after miscarriage.

Our society DOES equate abortion with murder - with one small caveat... it has to be a "wanted" child.

There is a difference in that the unborn child has built fewer relationships at that point in there life. This is true for the born as well. As a baby grows so does his circle of friends and influence.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Heard of it many times, and have a couple friends who did name the child and have a service for the child after miscarriage.

Our society DOES equate abortion with murder - with one small caveat... it has to be a "wanted" child.

There is a difference in that the unborn child has built fewer relationships at that point in there life. This is true for the born as well. As a baby grows so does his circle of friends and influence.

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

I receive your point but accept no responsibility for the sins of my forefathers or the church at large. Also, I think it's a flimsy argument. "treating" someone differently is much different than killing them off.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I receive your point but accept no responsibility for the sins of my forefathers or the church at large. Also, I think it's a flimsy argument. "treating" someone differently is much different than killing them off.

How many unborns have you named? How many unborns have you suggested be buried? How many unborn funerals have you attended? I'm willing to wager that your actions show that you don't treat unborns as people except when it comes to the abortion issue.

Also the argument isn't merely that "unborns are being treated differently" its that you and the church at large and most all of society have never treated unborns as people and that's where the idea that abortion is permissible stems from, unborns are not being treated like people by anyone. (Though that is starting to change.)

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How many unborns have you named? How many unborns have you suggested be buried? How many unborn funerals have you attended? I'm willing to wager that your actions show that you don't treat unborns as people except when it comes to the abortion issue.

Also the argument isn't merely that "unborns are being treated differently" its that you and the church at large and most all of society have never treated unborns as people and that's where the idea that abortion is permissible stems from, unborns are not being treated like people by anyone. (Though that is starting to change.)

I won't quibble, but most of my unborn children were named.

Abortion is a societal ill, so in that regard we all share in it. I think rather than laying blame squarely on the church in this matter, you can find it is the church that is at the forefront in aiding those effected by unplanned pregnancies, and yes, even treating the unborn as real children.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I won't quibble, but most of my unborn children were named.

Abortion is a societal ill, so in that regard we all share in it. I think rather than laying blame squarely on the church in this matter, you can find it is the church that is at the forefront in aiding those effected by unplanned pregnancies, and yes, even treating the unborn as real children.

The church is at the forefront of trying to stop abortion now that is true. That doesn't change that it was the churches practices that made unborns be viewed as less than people to begin with.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

I can't speak beyond my own 39 years of living, and the little corner of the world I've lived in. But growing up in the mountains, every still born we have ever known of, or unborn (assuming you mean miscarriages, or where the baby inside died because mom died or was killed), have always been named and been either a part of mom's funeral, or had one of their own. I can take you to countless cemetaries in the mountains of East TN where there are tons of graves where families we know have buried a still born baby, with names on them.... And can take you to quite a few for miscarried fetus'. So, no, I can't speak to 2000 years, but I can say that the broad brush your using doesn't paint over everyone.