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10-06-2012, 09:21 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,829
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
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Originally Posted by LooneyLucy
Hmmm and I thot you were talking about reputation. I agree he had to step down, just don't agree with your "shunning" attitude.
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Lucy, when you consistently mischaracterize people's posts, you lose your own credibility. No one has alluded to the idea of shunning a repentant sinner. Or even an unrepentant one, for that matter. I certainly wouldn't want to be shunned and I wouldn't support that kind of treatment of ANYone else.
Even if a man commits terrible sins, if he repents, he should be forgiven. If God forgives, who are we to hold a grudge?
I'm just getting frustrated with the intertwining of "forgiveness" with "retaining one's position." One MIGHT retain a position if the congregation is okay with it, and one's authorities are okay with it--but if the congregation and/or the authorities are NOT okay with it, it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't even mean they aren't forgiving. It means they don't trust the person to do their job OR at the very least, they don't think they can do it effectively. Which has merit!
I personally know of churches who have been so forgiving upon someone's confession that they allowed them to keep their job--and kudos to them for their compassion and magnanimity! However, it isn't necessary for the person to keep their job in order for forgiveness to take place. Further, you aren't thinking of the person who has fallen. Leadership is actually a very stressful position. It is OFTEN, if not always in the best interest of someone who has stepped very far out of line to take a step back and get their priorities straight. Think about what might lead to this kind of failure: a lack of prayer, a lack of relationship with God, a lack of relationship with a spouse, a lack of rest, too much stress, too many things on the schedule, overwhelming obligations---the list of contributing factors is lengthy.
Stepping down and going back to square one isn't just in the best interest of the church; it may also very well be in the best interest of the leader. Thinking of my pastor, if he committed some kind of immoral act, I would think that he would need to take time off first and foremost to restore his relationship with his wife--with no distractions or outside pressures. To restore his relationships with his children. And eventually to restore relationships and trust with the church and community. Those things take time and healing doesn't happen overnight. It really doesn't. Not unless God performs a miracle.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
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10-06-2012, 09:25 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 110
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
I'm just getting frustrated with the intertwining of "forgiveness" with "retaining one's position." One MIGHT retain a position if the congregation is okay with it, and one's authorities are okay with it--but if the congregation and/or the authorities are NOT okay with it, it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't even mean they aren't forgiving. It means they don't trust the person to do their job OR at the very least, they don't think they can do it effectively. Which has merit!
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Once again, I repeat, he had to step down.
Last edited by MissBrattified; 10-06-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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10-06-2012, 09:27 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,829
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by LooneyLucy
Once again, I repeat, he had to step down.
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What does that have to do with my post? Why don't you try actually addressing post content? Otherwise, why quote anyone?
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
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10-06-2012, 09:41 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by LooneyLucy
Once again, I repeat, he had to step down.
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Nobody said he didn't. lol
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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10-07-2012, 04:58 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Lucy, when you consistently mischaracterize people's posts, you lose your own credibility. No one has alluded to the idea of shunning a repentant sinner. Or even an unrepentant one, for that matter. I certainly wouldn't want to be shunned and I wouldn't support that kind of treatment of ANYone else.
Even if a man commits terrible sins, if he repents, he should be forgiven. If God forgives, who are we to hold a grudge?
I'm just getting frustrated with the intertwining of "forgiveness" with "retaining one's position." One MIGHT retain a position if the congregation is okay with it, and one's authorities are okay with it--but if the congregation and/or the authorities are NOT okay with it, it doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't even mean they aren't forgiving. It means they don't trust the person to do their job OR at the very least, they don't think they can do it effectively. Which has merit!
I personally know of churches who have been so forgiving upon someone's confession that they allowed them to keep their job--and kudos to them for their compassion and magnanimity! However, it isn't necessary for the person to keep their job in order for forgiveness to take place. Further, you aren't thinking of the person who has fallen. Leadership is actually a very stressful position. It is OFTEN, if not always in the best interest of someone who has stepped very far out of line to take a step back and get their priorities straight. Think about what might lead to this kind of failure: a lack of prayer, a lack of relationship with God, a lack of relationship with a spouse, a lack of rest, too much stress, too many things on the schedule, overwhelming obligations---the list of contributing factors is lengthy.
Stepping down and going back to square one isn't just in the best interest of the church; it may also very well be in the best interest of the leader. Thinking of my pastor, if he committed some kind of immoral act, I would think that he would need to take time off first and foremost to restore his relationship with his wife--with no distractions or outside pressures. To restore his relationships with his children. And eventually to restore relationships and trust with the church and community. Those things take time and healing doesn't happen overnight. It really doesn't. Not unless God performs a miracle.
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Never has an AFF member given themselves a more appropriate screen name!
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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10-07-2012, 05:00 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 110
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Never has an AFF member given themselves a more appropriate screen name!
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maybe you should remove yourself as administrator.
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10-07-2012, 05:21 PM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,848
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by LooneyLucy
maybe you should remove yourself as administrator.
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Why? Because I commended you on your choice of screen name?
__________________
"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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10-07-2012, 05:03 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Re: Restoration after a moral failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified
Lucy, when you consistently mischaracterize people's posts, you lose your own credibility. No one has alluded to the idea of shunning a repentant sinner. .
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See MissB noticed it too. This is a pattern with Lucy.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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