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Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder
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Incorrect. The PERSON of God is eternal and has always been deity. But this person took upon Himself the nature of humanity as well through incarnation alone. The person existed before the incarnation existed. And the incarnation involved human nature. There is no Son without human nature. And since human nature is not eternal, the Son is not eternal either. God took upon Himself the nature of humanity -- the nature of Abraham, which is human. Sonship cannot exist with fatherhood and motherhood. We cnanot change definitions of words as trinitarianism does with the term SON. There is no such thing as a Son without both a mother and father. Therefore, since the mother is not eternal, the Son never can be and never was eternal.
Since the Person of God was incarnate, then the Son is not a mere projection of God, but is God in very person. But there is only One Person.
Incorrect. The Son's PERSON, which is the same Person as the Father and Holy Ghost, is eternal. This Person of God existed at one time without ever having incarnated Himself. Therefore, the Son is not eternal, but His person is.
It's really quite simple.
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OK then please explain how; John 14:23 |
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Joh 14:23 KJV Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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"Son" is not even mentioned here, bladder. THis is not referring to the flesh and body entering into our lives. But it is not speaking of TWO SPIRITS entering intou our hearts as well.
Eph 4:4 says there is ONE SPIRIT. This verse is referring to a UNION of will and mind and purpose with Christ. Jesus meant the same thing when he prayed we all be One as He and His Father are one. Since we come into union with the Son in order to appraoch the Living God, plurality is involved in Christ's words. We become one with Christ who is God manifested in flesh in order ot be saved, which in turn makes us One with God! That is why we read of one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus. Since the person of the Son is the persoin of the Father, then the role of Son with whom we become one causes us to be one with the Father in both personal and soteriological manner.
We have both roles' qualities in salvation. Son and Father. That does not make them two persons, again, though. If the Holy GHost is a different SPIRIT than the Spirit of the Father, and yet we also have the Spirit of Christ, are they three SPIRITS? Of course not. Your doctrine demands they be three spirits, though, in contradiciton of Ep 4:4.
Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
That is easy. The GLORY Jesus was speaking about was the work of the cross. Jesus had been speaking of the cross around this verse. And it refers to this verse as well:
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Joh 7:39 KJV (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
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The glory He had with the Father is the work of the cross the Father had all ordained before the foundation of the world. The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world because God sees those things that are not as though they are.
Romans 4:17.
Joh 17:24 KJV Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Notice Jesus said, "Be with me where I am." The disciples were standing RIGHT THERE when He said that! This is referring to Christ's status of being in the Kingdom, and not a physical location. If they were in the kingdom, they could see His glory. And loving Christ before the foundation of the world is no more indicative that Christ actually existed then than is the idea that Jesus was actually crucified before the world began. Trinitarians as yourself waffle terribly here since if they are going to say that everytime we read of a reference to a time before the foundation of the world as being indicative of the element actually in existence at that time, then they destroy the whole thought of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And they're not wiling to do that.
Heb 1:2 KJV Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Same as above. Adam was distinctly said to be created after the figure of Him that WAS TO COME. If Christ existed at that time, then Adam would have been created after the figure OF HIM WHO ALREADY WAS. But it does not say that:
Rom 5:14 KJV Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.
Romans 5:14 explains
Heb 1:2. If creation of Adam was made in the manner of the Son not having come into existence yet since GHod had not yet manifested in flesh as Son, then this explains how
Heb 1:2 says Ghod made creation by the Son. We do not read the SON CREATED ALL THINGS, but rather GOD CREATED BY THE SON. If the Son created things as trinitarians claim he did, then we would not read that GOD DID IT "BY THE SON."
Col 1:16-17 KJV For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
To say the above proves eternal Sonship shows trinitarianism's lack of scholarly understanding. We already noted that
Heb 1:2 said GOD created BY THE SON. We do not read the SON CREATED. Col preserves this same language and says BY HIM. Being BEFORE all things means He is HEAD over it all. Christ is also stated to be the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD.
Col 1:18 KJV And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the
firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Was everything DEAD before the world existed, and Christ was born FIRST FROM THAT DEADNESS? Of course not. This is referring to the resurrection on the third day, in which Christ was made HEAD of the new creation church who is comprised of believers alive from the dead (Ro 6:13).
This is speaking of HEADSHIP. Just as God
created Adam after the figure of HIM THAT WAS TO COME, meaning the Sonship did not exist yet, so were all things made BY HIM. God made all things BY THE SON. This ties in with the thought that GOD SPOKE THE WORD in creation. Likewise, the Johanine Comma does not say the SON existed as witness, but THE WORD.
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fit into your theology, if your right you’ll be able to explain the use of the word SON in each of these four passages (context for John 17:5 in verse 1 and for Colossians 1:16-17 at verse 13). It’s not very convincing the way you always duck these verses.
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Who said I ducked any verses????? This is the first time you presented them to ME. I ducked nothing! LOL
And when you say, "If you're right." You mean to say that my claim that an apple has a nature to be red, and therefore we cannot say RED is an apple, is not correct????????
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You claim Mr Blume that the Son is the same person as the Father, OK well expalin these 5 passages in the light of yoru claim.
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I did.
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How can the Son be the father when for instance the Son possesses glory WITH the Father from before the creation (John 17:5).
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You think far too fleshly. The scriptures teach oneness of purpose and mind, along with person. You are not allowing ALL SCRIPTURE to explain these verses, such as
Rom 5:14.
Now, please stop avoiding MY point and tell me how RED IS AN APPLE, since red is part of the nature of an apple.
Hybrid Mode
