Cutting Back On 'Church' Services

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What does one have to do with the other?

If you have a strong personal relationship with Jesus why WOULDN'T you want more church?

Is the need us? Or is it the hungry and the thirsty that are looking for God or maybe those that are weak in their "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ and need a lift.

Why do we see "church" always about what WE can get out of it and not rather what we can GIVE to our fellow brothers and sisters or to a sinner that might be visiting?

Really good question, Prax........when someone says "I need to go to church more" it indicates to me that they are going for their own benefit. Nothing wrong with that, but you and I both know that the percentage of sinners IN the church is FAR less than the percentage outside of it.

How much emphasis is placed on going out into the world and reaching the lost?

Go thru the Bible and tell me how many times you find Jesus going to church. And when he did, he preached at the hypocrites, for the most part.

The majority of his time was spent walking thru the cities and villages, healing the sick, raising the dead, forgiving the sinner......

In our society, church has for the most part become a social experience, and we see the same faces, hear the same songs, hear the same messages preached, and we leave saying "Wow, that was awesome, I feel so much better". And, then we do it all again. And again.

So, when someone says "I need to go to church more" it just makes me wonder if they need the group support to keep reminding themselves that they can "hold out until Jesus comes".

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Really good question, Prax........when someone says "I need to go to church more" it indicates to me that they are going for their own benefit. Nothing wrong with that, but you and I both know that the percentage of sinners IN the church is FAR less than the percentage outside of it.

That's like saying the percentage of Laker fans at a home game is more than those at an away game...duh.

But the fact remains, at least at my church, we constantly have vistors coming.

"Church" never was just about "the church". It was common and expected

They had "visitors" on the day of Pentecost when the church was gathered in the upper room

Paul speaks about visitors
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

How much emphasis is placed on going out into the world and reaching the lost?

Obviously a lot or otherwise how did they get invited to a church meeting?

Go thru the Bible and tell me how many times you find Jesus going to church. And when he did, he preached at the hypocrites, for the most part.

Mat 12:9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue.

Mat 13:54 and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?

Mar 1:23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out,

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

The majority of his time was spent walking thru the cities and villages, healing the sick, raising the dead, forgiving the sinner......

See above....

In our society, church has for the most part become a social experience, and we see the same faces, hear the same songs, hear the same messages preached, and we leave saying "Wow, that was awesome, I feel so much better". And, then we do it all again. And again.

I LOVE going to church meetings. Where do you guys go to church?

So, when someone says "I need to go to church more" it just makes me wonder if they need the group support to keep reminding themselves that they can "hold out until Jesus comes".

Maybe the person that needs more church is hurting? Will your church be there for him or her? Will you?

When I hear "I need more church" I think "I want to help" not "Oh Gosh, can't I just stay home? Shouldn't you already have a strong relationship with Jesus by now?"

Jas 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

Gathering together is for the purpose of encouraging each other
Heb 10:25 not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near.

That should be our motivation for going when it's not us that has a need but someone else

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That's like saying the percentage of Laker fans at a home game is more than those at an away game...duh.

But the fact remains, at least at my church, we constantly have vistors coming.

"Church" never was just about "the church". It was common and expected

They had "visitors" on the day of Pentecost when the church was gathered in the upper room

Paul speaks about visitors
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.

1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?


Obviously a lot or otherwise how did they get invited to a church meeting?



Mat 12:9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue.

Mat 13:54 and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?

Mar 1:23 And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out,

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,


See above....


I LOVE going to church meetings. Where do you guys go to church?


Maybe the person that needs more church is hurting? Will your church be there for him or her? Will you?

When I hear "I need more church" I think "I want to help" not "Oh Gosh, can't I just stay home? Shouldn't you already have a strong relationship with Jesus by now?"

Jas 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

Gathering together is for the purpose of encouraging each other
Heb 10:25 not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near.

That should be our motivation for going when it's not us that has a need but someone else

I appreciate the condescension, not above engaging in it myself sometimes.....but, I stand by my point.....church these days has become about pleasing the attendee, not reaching sinners.......at least in my experience.

As a former pastor, I got real tired of hearing some of the old timers complain about the new music, the temperature, the volume, blah blah blah.....we use nomenclature familiar to the saint and not the sinner.....we do things that saints are comfortable with, not necessarily the sinner.......and in a previous post, I made the observation that in a very unscientific study (polled the congregation I used to pastor) a VAST majority of saints had never won another soul to the Lord.

So, whereas I don't have a problem going to church, I DO have a problem when saints only want to do that, and not fulfill the Great Commission.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I appreciate the condescension, not above engaging in it myself sometimes.....but, I stand by my point.....church these days has become about pleasing the attendee, not reaching sinners.......at least in my experience.

Change churches? Change your church? Start a new church that is doing it right?

As a former pastor, I got real tired of hearing some of the old timers complain about the new music, the temperature, the volume, blah blah blah.....we use nomenclature familiar to the saint and not the sinner.....we do things that saints are comfortable with, not necessarily the sinner.......and in a previous post, I made the observation that in a very unscientific study (polled the congregation I used to pastor) a VAST majority of saints had never won another soul to the Lord.

That the vast majority have not won a soul does not really affect my point of why we assemble and what we do at "church".

Some are harvesters (Jesus specifically said to pray for them). Some are teachers. Some are encouragers. We have different gifts

1Co 14:26 Then how is it, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be for building up.

Rom 12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we the many are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another.
Rom 12:6 Then having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, if prophecy, according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 or ministry, in the ministry; or he who teaches, in the teaching;
Rom 12:8 or he who exhorts, in the encouragement; or he who shares, in simplicity; or he who takes the lead, in diligence; or he who shows mercy, in cheerfulness.
Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy, shrinking from evil, cleaving to good;
Rom 12:10 in brotherly love to one another, loving fervently, having led one another in honor.
Rom 12:11 As to diligence, not slothful, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 rejoicing in hope, patient in affliction, steadfastly continuing in prayer,
Rom 12:13 distributing to the needs of the saints, pursuing hospitality.

So, whereas I don't have a problem going to church, I DO have a problem when saints only want to do that, and not fulfill the Great Commission.

Where else are they going to be taught to do MORE than just "go to church"?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Change churches? Change your church? Start a new church that is doing it right?


That the vast majority have not won a soul does not really affect my point of why we assemble and what we do at "church".

Some are harvesters (Jesus specifically said to pray for them). Some are teachers. Some are encouragers. We have different gifts

1Co 14:26 Then how is it, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be for building up.

Rom 12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we the many are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another.
Rom 12:6 Then having gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, if prophecy, according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 or ministry, in the ministry; or he who teaches, in the teaching;
Rom 12:8 or he who exhorts, in the encouragement; or he who shares, in simplicity; or he who takes the lead, in diligence; or he who shows mercy, in cheerfulness.
Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy, shrinking from evil, cleaving to good;
Rom 12:10 in brotherly love to one another, loving fervently, having led one another in honor.
Rom 12:11 As to diligence, not slothful, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 rejoicing in hope, patient in affliction, steadfastly continuing in prayer,
Rom 12:13 distributing to the needs of the saints, pursuing hospitality.


Where else are they going to be taught to do MORE than just "go to church"?

Are you saying that winning souls is a gift, and not every Christian is charged to do it?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Are you saying that winning souls is a gift, and not every Christian is charged to do it?

Im saying some are a lot better at it than others. Take for example someone that is shy and not well equipped to go up to a stranger and witness to them.

They might be witnesses in other ways to their family and co workers by their example and by dropping "seed" here and there and yet never get credited with "being a soul winner", despite them daily praying for souls and those that are missionaries.

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he who plants anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
1Co 3:8 So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:9 For of God we are fellow-workers, a field of God, and you are a building of God.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given to me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let every man be careful how he builds on it.
1Co 3:11 For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
1Co 3:13 each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
1Co 3:14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Im saying some are a lot better at it than others. Take for example someone that is shy and not well equipped to go up to a stranger and witness to them.

They might be witnesses in other ways to their family and co workers by their example and by dropping "seed" here and there and yet never get credited with "being a soul winner", despite them daily praying for souls and those that are missionaries.

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he who plants anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
1Co 3:8 So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:9 For of God we are fellow-workers, a field of God, and you are a building of God.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given to me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let every man be careful how he builds on it.
1Co 3:11 For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
1Co 3:13 each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
1Co 3:14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.

Fair enough, and as long as each Christian is living their witness to the world, then they are fulfilling the Great Commission.


I have no problem with church, and don't even have a problem with church being a social experience. It should be a place of fellowship, reinforcement, encouragement, healing, teaching, and all of those other things that the Bible mentions. My issue once again is with Christians who think that as long as they go to church, that's all there is to it.


On this point, I'm sure we will have to agree to disagree.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I appreciate the condescension, not above engaging in it myself sometimes.....but, I stand by my point.....church these days has become about pleasing the attendee, not reaching sinners.......at least in my experience.

As a former pastor, I got real tired of hearing some of the old timers complain about the new music, the temperature, the volume, blah blah blah.....we use nomenclature familiar to the saint and not the sinner.....we do things that saints are comfortable with, not necessarily the sinner.......and in a previous post, I made the observation that in a very unscientific study (polled the congregation I used to pastor) a VAST majority of saints had never won another soul to the Lord.

So, whereas I don't have a problem going to church, I DO have a problem when saints only want to do that, and not fulfill the Great Commission.

Michael, you need to pastor again. You could make up a congregation from AFF. The only problem would be you would have to have more than 1 service! You would have to have a service "in your home" for those who no longer believe in a church building. And then there are those who, "if you didn't have a building" wouldn't go. But, that would be okay. Just think of how much fun it would be pastoring, Apostolics, X-Apostolics, AOG's, Agnostics, Cons, UltraCons, Liberals, Oneness, Trinitarians, Dispensationalists, Preterists, Jesus Only, etc. etc. etc. If you would have service on the night I wanted you to have it on I might come myself. By the way, could you lay out a statement of beliefs for this kind of group?

Been Thinkin

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Michael, you need to pastor again. You could make up a congregation from AFF. The only problem would be you would have to have more than 1 service! You would have to have a service "in your home" for those who no longer believe in a church building. And then there are those who, "if you didn't have a building" wouldn't go. But, that would be okay. Just think of how much fun it would be pastoring, Apostolics, X-Apostolics, AOG's, Agnostics, Cons, UltraCons, Liberals, Oneness, Trinitarians, Dispensationalists, Preterists, Jesus Only, etc. etc. etc. If you would have service on the night I wanted you to have it on I might come myself. By the way, could you lay out a statement of beliefs for this kind of group?

Been Thinkin

Uh, no thank you, my friend.....I'll leave that one to you!