Shouts

[Cindy]

Who are we to judge someone's worship? DB, I am sure you have heard about people being taken home worshiping and it continuing for hours. And I think some people worship at home the same way they do at church.

If it is for "show" that is between them and God, He is the one that will judge, not us.

[RandyWayne]

Ancient Shaolin Monk saying:
"If a young man is dancing in church and there is no single young lady to see him, is he still dancing?"

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Not necessarily making fun of it, but I'll let these two posts speak for themselves.





The people in the upper room appeared to be "drunk" and so we don't really know what all they were actually doing, aside from speaking in tongues. I'm simply not going to interfere, in any way, with someone's expression toward God, unless they are harming themselves or the congregation. AND I am not going to post videos or comment in a way that makes it look as though I am judge and jury on it.

I think it's perfectly Biblical to care about worship that has order, thats modest, befitting and appropriate. Paul spends three chapters in I Corinthians addressing the inappropriate way the Corinthian Christians were worshiping. It was important to him as a leader of the church to communicate to the Corinthians that frightening unbelievers and causing them to believe they were nuts was not appropriate. God is not the author of confusion.

A good question would be to ask "Are we doing anything at our church that fosters confusion in the minds of unbelievers visiting our church?" I had to spend 1 1/2 hours doing damage control several weeks ago after some unwise members of our church decided to overwhelm a new believer, a former Catholic, with "super spirituality" getting in her face and declaring that there were demons in her house. If I hadn't defused her confusion back at her friends house alongside her yet to convert husband, would've stopped coming to our assembly.

So as a pastor I am very sensitive to these assumptions we make as lifelong Pentecostals that we should do whatever, whenever, however under the guise of "freedom in the Spirit". Spirit-filled, Spirit-led people have liberty, yes, but they're supposed to possess wisdom too.

It's not the first time I have had to help undo the damage done to people because people feel it's okay to get a little crazy at church. Worship doesn't have to be outlandish and a turn off to outsiders to be pleasing to God. If a fruit of the Spirit is self control, why can't some people seem to exercise that when they worship. I don't believe God possesses you and makes you do things you cannot control.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You talk about it as much as you do the hair fanciers, so I only assume it bugs you.

Well watch a new born Christian, a former atheist get freaked out over some "super duper spiritual" woman act all weird and mystical and he doesn't come back, or watch a young adult daughter of a woman, another former Catholic, finally get her daughter to come to church and she comes for a month and then comes down to the altar and some foolish man gets all nutty around her and she doesn't come back----then it will bug you too.

These people invested ZERO ruses these folks, ZERO Bible studies, counseling, getting to know these folks---no time invested whatsoever, BUT they have the freedom to act a fool at church and not consider the damage they're doing. And then later the guy's wife gets her feeling hurt over some little silly thing that happened in the children's ministry and they leave with the whole family over it (they've since quit the other church the started attending because of offense) and so here we are losing a woman who was wide open and hungry---she attends another church down the road with her husband and kids now---we keep the dude who thinks he can act any old way at church, and then they up leave any way.

I've had enough of the attitude that says, "Well David danced before the Lord, so anything goes." You miss the point of that story and you have to ignore Paul's very black and white teaching on order in public worship. Is church for church people or is it to declare the Gospel and lead people to salvation?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

No intention of mockery, but if these folks on this video are really good at acting out the "shouting", it is possible for it to be faked, no? I don't doubt there is an emotional response to God sometimes. I just don't see Biblically some of the mystical ways people express themselves. To the unbeliever it is spooky and unnerving. Does spirituality have to be spooky?

You don't think the Upper Room was a little spooky? lol I've heard and seen some get frightened by a move of God and then I've seen many cry, because they actually felt God for the first time in their lives.

My problem and, yes, I may have approached it too hard, is when we post here, as though sitting on a pew together, pointing and critiquing someone's moment of intimacy with God. If you want to tick me off, that will do it.

I came out of a boring, liturgical surrounding. Shortly after visiting a Pentecostal church, the preacher's wife began to dance. I stood watching and thinking to myself, "I knew He was real!"

You see when I was very young, we used to watch The Ten Commandments when it aired around Easter time. When Moses would come to the burning bush and God spoke to him, I would get tears in my eyes. I always knew God was that real, but until I walked into a Pentecostal Church, I never experienced it.

So, to even talk and laugh a little about someone "shuffling" on the platform from a video, that is just appalling to me.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Well watch a new born Christian, a former atheist get freaked out over some "super duper spiritual" woman act all weird and mystical and he doesn't come back, or watch a young adult daughter of a woman, another former Catholic, finally get her daughter to come to church and she comes for a month and then comes down to the altar and some foolish man gets all nutty around her and she doesn't come back----then it will bug you too.

These people invested ZERO ruses these folks, ZERO Bible studies, counseling, getting to know these folks---no time invested whatsoever, BUT they have the freedom to act a fool at church and not consider the damage they're doing. And then later the guy's wife gets her feeling hurt over some little silly thing that happened in the children's ministry and they leave with the whole family over it (they've since quit the other church the started attending because of offense) and so here we are losing a woman who was wide open and hungry---she attends another church down the road with her husband and kids now---we keep the dude who thinks he can act any old way at church, and then they up leave any way.

I've had enough of the attitude that says, "Well David danced before the Lord, so anything goes." You miss the point of that story and you have to ignore Paul's very black and white teaching on order in public worship. Is church for church people or is it to declare the Gospel and lead people to salvation?

My wife had a lady she was witnessing to and finally she agreed to come to church with her. Well the Holy Ghost moved and people started rolling on the ground. This lady never stepped one foot back into that church again.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I think it's perfectly Biblical to care about worship that has order, thats modest, befitting and appropriate. Paul spends three chapters in I Corinthians addressing the inappropriate way the Corinthian Christians were worshiping. It was important to him as a leader of the church to communicate to the Corinthians that frightening unbelievers and causing them to believe they were nuts was not appropriate. God is not the author of confusion.

A good question would be to ask "Are we doing anything at our church that fosters confusion in the minds of unbelievers visiting our church?" I had to spend 1 1/2 hours doing damage control several weeks ago after some unwise members of our church decided to overwhelm a new believer, a former Catholic, with "super spirituality" getting in her face and declaring that there were demons in her house. If I hadn't defused her confusion back at her friends house alongside her yet to convert husband, would've stopped coming to our assembly.

So as a pastor I am very sensitive to these assumptions we make as lifelong Pentecostals that we should do whatever, whenever, however under the guise of "freedom in the Spirit". Spirit-filled, Spirit-led people have liberty, yes, but they're supposed to possess wisdom too.

It's not the first time I have had to help undo the damage done to people because people feel it's okay to get a little crazy at church. Worship doesn't have to be outlandish and a turn off to outsiders to be pleasing to God. If a fruit of the Spirit is self control, why can't some people seem to exercise that when they worship. I don't believe God possesses you and makes you do things you cannot control.

Some of what you wrote is indeed your role to teach and do damage control. You seemed to have handled that well. It also teaches the Catholic couple that you are wise and in control. It's a teachable moment all around and I'm always glad to have them.

I think that all people possess individual personalities, as such, every person will respond in different ways. We can't corral people into one personality, but they must be allowed to have their freedom of expression.

Now, it is wise to teach the proper balance in I Corinthians. Some teach what I see as an imbalance. They teach that you should not speak in tongues in the congregation, but in private. Yet, when you look closely, I Cor 14:5 says this, " I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied:..." You simply can't use Webster to define, "rather".

He is actually, by Greek definition, saying, "I would that you all speak in tongues, but in a larger degree, that you would prophesy."

So, he never says NOT to speak in tongues in the congregation, but to pray to prophesy to a larger degree.

Someone here once stated that they don't allow their people to speak in tongues in the congregation, aside from being infilled, but they do let them run and dance around the church. lol There is more scripture on speaking in tongues than the latter, so I don't know where that teaching is from.

Anyway, we've been around the block long enough to know that the church is a place of teaching and correction. And we know that the move of God has had much more positive results than those that make a display and circumvent rationality.

We are a spiritual church, given gifts to operate. Let's not try to cast that aside because of a few tares or misguided souls.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Cindy

Who are we to judge someone's worship? DB, I am sure you have heard about people being taken home worshiping and it continuing for hours. And I think some people worship at home the same way they do at church.

If it is for "show" that is between them and God, He is the one that will judge, not us.

But as a pastor I can't just leave it up to "God knows if this is right or not". I have to err on the side of protecting the more vulnerable among us. We do have the abilitiy to test the spirits whether they be of God. It isnperfectly within my sphere of authority to draw lines and to say what can or cannot happen while we are together. My vision and focus is for the outsider, the non churched, the unbeliever. I am not interested in a country club church that exists to cater to the mature believer or life long church goer. It's been an uphill climb but the culture of church is changing as we have preached and taught for 12 years that we must become Gospel focused----spreading the Good News to the community and world. We are focused on leading people to Jesus.

We led 121 people in 2012 from March-December, to the glory of God. We have led 13 people thus far this year. We aren't trying to create moves of God, we are trying to get people to move to God. He's already here waiting and willing to accept them into the family. We are moving any obstacle and hinderance to any unborn person to become born again. The pathway to the cross must be clear of all obstructions at any cost! Even if that means offending veteran church goers who believe church should be about them and not the Great Commission.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Cindy

Who are we to judge someone's worship? DB, I am sure you have heard about people being taken home worshiping and it continuing for hours. And I think some people worship at home the same way they do at church.

If it is for "show" that is between them and God, He is the one that will judge, not us.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Was David going into convulsions or seizure-like movements or was he dancing traditional Jewish dances before the Lord? And we don't really have any evidence in the NT church of such productions---walk six paces, dance and about, walk six paces dance and shout. David was celebrating the return of the ark to Israel and making it the center of their worship. Today WE are the Temple of the HS. I don't have to have a Sunday gathering to worship. I can worship 24/7 anywhere. Why don't these folks fall out, huck and buck at the grocery or on the street or in a parking lot or in their living room?

I'm afraid I've observed a lot of emotionalism and putting on a show at church. Why are the "moves of God" only between 10-12 on Sundays? Could it be that there's a temptation to show out in the confines of church? I think it's important to be consistent. You should worship God in public like you do in private. I wouldn't do anything in public worship that I'm not consistently doing in private. Have you ever heard of someone getting "slain in the Spirit" at home alone in their bedroom? Have you heard of someone running the halls of their house when no one was there to observe? Just askin...

I have heard someone say that serving God shouldn't have any emotion.
God saved my bacon from an eternal fire & I ain't gonna be emotional?
God gave me my physical life & eternal life & preserves me day in & day out & there isn't going to be an emotional response to that?
DB, the Bible is rife with emotional displays demonstrated by a pyscical response.
As for how we respond at home, many times I or my family will be singing, clapping our hands, weeping, & just generally worsipping God.
Do we have to show some restraint?
Yes, we live in a duplex with neighbours who moved in this past summer who are quiet as a Church mouse & have already indicated that our teanagers are a little on the noisey side, so yes, we need to be cognizance of that in are actions.
In regards to Church, the Bible declares to sing, clap, shout in our praise & worship--if that bothers you well....