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[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

But, wouldn't Jesus then be saying, "Except a man be born of water and water"?

In John 3:22, right after the account of Nicodemus, it says - "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."

Isn't he speaking of both in a purifying sense, yet distinctly separate? Such as in Matthew 3:11?

Since one chapter after his discourse with Nicodemus Jesus again brings up "water" in relation to receiving eternal life, I think it is safe to say that a better translation of John 3:5 would have been, "born of the water, even of the Spirit".

But again, I still hold that baptim is "for the remission of sins".

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Since one chapter after his discourse with Nicodemus Jesus again brings up "water" in relation to receiving eternal life, I think it is safe to say that a better translation of John 3:5 would have been, "born of the water, even of the Spirit".

But again, I still hold that baptism is "for the remission of sins".

I think that "and" can also be defined as "also". In context it could also mean "even".

However, when I review everything that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, I see him talking about being "saved", i.e., "that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). And I remember Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

So, I appreciate what you've written and I'll think about it some more.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think that "and" can also be defined as "also". In context it could also mean "even".

However, when I review everything that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, I see him talking about being "saved", i.e., "that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). And I remember Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

So, I appreciate what you've written and I'll think about it some more.

Yes, he who believes and is baptized shall (future event) be saved, but saved by what? Paul tels us in Titus 3:5-6....

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

So believing and baptism are steps that take us towards the thing that saves us, namely the indwelling Spirit of God.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Yes, he who believes and is baptized shall (future event) be saved, but saved by what? Paul tels us in Titus 3:5-6....

So believing and baptism are steps that take us towards the thing that saves us, namely the indwelling Spirit of God.

But the Word also states that John preached the "baptism of repentance" - Mark 1:4; "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." - II Cor 7:10; The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..." - I Peter 3:21.

When you couple these verses with Titus 3:5-6, you end up with Acts 2:38 again.

I don't think the Apostles expressed their belief in the way we try to slap terminology down on everything. It was simply the Gospel to them. Not a "Stepper" formula.

On another note, was it the Gospel or the response to? II Thess 1:8 and I Peter 4:17 don't appear to make a distinction when they call on us to "obey" the Gospel. How can you make a distinction between what the Gospel is and your response to it when they simply ONLY say - this is what the end will be if you don't "obey"? Anyway, I've always noticed that and wondered at it.