End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[Sister Alvear]

This is the only occurrence of the word in the New Testament (Grenz, 89). It is also another word that is translated in such a way that its main meaning is not obvious in the translation. The normal translation is “helper” or someone who has helped. The basic and most obvious translation of the word is patron or benefactor, and women in this role, are well attested in the Roman world (Dunn, 888). Phoebe was likely another wealthy woman who served the church out of her means as the women in Luke 8 served Jesus out of theirs.Spencer has also suggested that porstatis could be derived from the root verb proistemi, which means to “to stand, place before or over,” or “to help by ruling” The times the verb appears in the New Testament it has the meaning of ruling or governing (Romans 12:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13), and in the Pastoral Epistles both bishops and deacons were to govern their households well. In other Greek sources, such as Josephus, the masculine form of prostatis is used to describe rulers and leaders like Moses, Herod, and Agrippa (Spencer 116). This word could mean that Phoebe was a ruler or another overseer in the church.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

This is the only occurrence of the word in the New Testament (Grenz, 89). It is also another word that is translated in such a way that its main meaning is not obvious in the translation. The normal translation is “helper” or someone who has helped. The basic and most obvious translation of the word is patron or benefactor, and women in this role, are well attested in the Roman world (Dunn, 888). Phoebe was likely another wealthy woman who served the church out of her means as the women in Luke 8 served Jesus out of theirs.Spencer has also suggested that porstatis could be derived from the root verb proistemi, which means to “to stand, place before or over,” or “to help by ruling” The times the verb appears in the New Testament it has the meaning of ruling or governing (Romans 12:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13), and in the Pastoral Epistles both bishops and deacons were to govern their households well. In other Greek sources, such as Josephus, the masculine form of prostatis is used to describe rulers and leaders like Moses, Herod, and Agrippa (Spencer 116). This word could mean that Phoebe was a ruler or another overseer in the church.

No it couldn't - Or, are you now telling us that Phoebe was a "ruler" over Paul....For he goes on to say in the same verse, "including myself also" ??


See the translations below:



New Living Translation
Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God's people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.

New American Standard Bible
that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

King James Bible
That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.


International Standard Version
Welcome her in the Lord as is appropriate for saints, and provide her with anything she may need from you, for she has assisted many people, including me.

NET Bible
so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and provide her with whatever help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many, including me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would accept her in Our Lord, as that is right for Saints, and in any matter that she seeks of you, that you would help her, because she is also a helper to many and also to me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Give her a Christian welcome that shows you are God's holy people. Provide her with anything she may need, because she has provided help to many people, including me.

Jubilee Bible 2000
that ye receive her in the Lord as a worthy saint, and that ye assist her in whatever thing in which she has need of you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

King James 2000 Bible
That you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you assist her in whatever business she has need of you: for she has been a helper of many, and of myself also.

American King James Version
That you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you assist her in whatever business she has need of you: for she has been a succorer of many, and of myself also.

American Standard Version
that ye receive her in the Lord, worthily of the saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever matter she may have need of you: for she herself also hath been a helper of many, and of mine own self.

Douay-Rheims Bible
That you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints; and that you assist her in whatsoever business she shall have need of you. For she also hath assisted many, and myself also.

Darby Bible Translation
that ye may receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you; for she also has been a helper of many, and of myself.

English Revised Version
that ye receive her in the Lord, worthily of the saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever matter she may have need of you: for she herself also hath been a succourer of many, and of mine own self.

Webster's Bible Translation
That ye receive her in the Lord, as it becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also.

Weymouth New Testament
that you may receive her as a fellow Christian in a manner worthy of God's people, and may assist her in any matter in which she may need help. For she has indeed been a kind friend to many, including myself.

World English Bible
that you receive her in the Lord, in a way worthy of the saints, and that you assist her in whatever matter she may need from you, for she herself also has been a helper of many, and of my own self.




Phoebe was a "helper" (not Paul's or anyone else's "ruler") - this is precisely what the Greek word denotes - as is demonstrated in all of the translations above, which combines hundreds of professional linguists & translators (working both independent of & in conjunction with one another)
.

[rdp]

Okay, will have to check back-in after church tonight to continue the party .


Now-now, dry your lil' eyes, I'll be back, Lord willing .

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by rdp

Phoebe was a "helper" (not Paul's or anyone else's "ruler") - this is precisely what the Greek word denotes - as is demonstrated in all of the translations above, which combines hundreds of professional linguists & translators (working both independent of & in conjunction with one another)

If Phoebe was merely a helper of others, why did Paul admonish men to be her helper instead of telling her to help those men? Seems odd if she was there to help them to tell them to help her. Hmmm...

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sasha

If Phoebe was merely a helper of others, why did Paul admonish men to be her helper instead of telling her to help those men? Seems odd if she was there to help them to tell them to help her. Hmmm...

Ummm, did you not read the mountains & mountains of translations, Greek definitions & precise lexical data that explicitly states she was "a helper of many, including myself" (or, will you now tell us that Phoebe was the Apostle Paul's "ruler" ?)?


There is no "if" Phoebe was a helper - the Bible specifically says she was a "helper" .



New Living Translation
Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God's people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.

New American Standard Bible
that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

International Standard Version
Welcome her in the Lord as is appropriate for saints, and provide her with anything she may need from you, for she has assisted many people, including me.

NET Bible
so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and provide her with whatever help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many, including me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would accept her in Our Lord, as that is right for Saints, and in any matter that she seeks of you, that you would help her, because she is also a helper to many and also to me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Give her a Christian welcome that shows you are God's holy people. Provide her with anything she may need, because she has provided help to many people, including me.

Jubilee Bible 2000
that ye receive her in the Lord as a worthy saint, and that ye assist her in whatever thing in which she has need of you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

King James 2000 Bible
That you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you assist her in whatever business she has need of you: for she has been a helper of many, and of myself also.

American Standard Version
that ye receive her in the Lord, worthily of the saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever matter she may have need of you: for she herself also hath been a helper of many, and of mine own self.

Douay-Rheims Bible
That you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints; and that you assist her in whatsoever business she shall have need of you. For she also hath assisted many, and myself also.

Darby Bible Translation
that ye may receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you; for she also has been a helper of many, and of myself.

Weymouth New Testament
that you may receive her as a fellow Christian in a manner worthy of God's people, and may assist her in any matter in which she may need help. For she has indeed been a kind friend to many, including myself.

World English Bible
that you receive her in the Lord, in a way worthy of the saints, and that you assist her in whatever matter she may need from you, for she herself also has been a helper of many, and of my own self.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by rdp

Ummm, did you not read the mountains & mountains of translations, Greek definitions & precise lexical data that explicitly states she was "a helper of many, including myself" (or, will you now tell us that Phoebe was the Apostle Paul's "ruler" ?)?


There is no "if" Phoebe was a helper - the Bible specifically says she was a "helper" .



New Living Translation
Welcome her in the Lord as one who is worthy of honor among God's people. Help her in whatever she needs, for she has been helpful to many, and especially to me.

New American Standard Bible
that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.

International Standard Version
Welcome her in the Lord as is appropriate for saints, and provide her with anything she may need from you, for she has assisted many people, including me.

NET Bible
so that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and provide her with whatever help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many, including me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That you would accept her in Our Lord, as that is right for Saints, and in any matter that she seeks of you, that you would help her, because she is also a helper to many and also to me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Give her a Christian welcome that shows you are God's holy people. Provide her with anything she may need, because she has provided help to many people, including me.

Jubilee Bible 2000
that ye receive her in the Lord as a worthy saint, and that ye assist her in whatever thing in which she has need of you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

King James 2000 Bible
That you receive her in the Lord, as becomes saints, and that you assist her in whatever business she has need of you: for she has been a helper of many, and of myself also.

American Standard Version
that ye receive her in the Lord, worthily of the saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever matter she may have need of you: for she herself also hath been a helper of many, and of mine own self.

Douay-Rheims Bible
That you receive her in the Lord as becometh saints; and that you assist her in whatsoever business she shall have need of you. For she also hath assisted many, and myself also.

Darby Bible Translation
that ye may receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you; for she also has been a helper of many, and of myself.

Weymouth New Testament
that you may receive her as a fellow Christian in a manner worthy of God's people, and may assist her in any matter in which she may need help. For she has indeed been a kind friend to many, including myself.

World English Bible
that you receive her in the Lord, in a way worthy of the saints, and that you assist her in whatever matter she may need from you, for she herself also has been a helper of many, and of my own self.

Is there a reason why you didn't address the rest of my question? I didn't deny that she was a helper by saying "if".

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Is there a reason why you didn't address the rest of my question? I didn't deny that she was a helper by saying "if".

First, "if" is a conjunction introducing a conditional clause indicating an ensuing uncertainty. If you do not mean the words you use, then perhaps you should not use them - I can only use the data you provide .


Second, here's "the rest of the question": "Why did Paul admonish men to be her helper instead of telling her to help those men?"


The Greek verb translated "she might need" (χρῄζῃ) is defined as "to have need of, to be in want of" (http://biblehub.com/greek/5535.htm). Paul point, as evidenced by his usage of the conjunction translated "for" (γὰρ), is that since she has been such a helper to other (including himself), then the same help should be returned to her in tending to her "wants or needs."


Are you thinking or arguing that this somehow validates women in the set-in, official capacity of the 5-fold ministry (contra Paul's clear prohibition in I Tim. 2 & I Cor. 14) ?