End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pliny

...With that said the passage is literal. However, Paul made exceptions to this. He is simply preventing women from taking the initiative in speaking and allows for exceptions when there are genuine pneumatic endowment - Holy Ghost inspiration through the gifts of the Spirit.

I agree with you 100% here. I agree that women are to only act under authority, and I agree the exceptions are allowed for inspiration by the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Pliny

This is an argument from silence. You assume Luke preached when that has never been hinted at. ....

I'm not assuming that. I'm simply pointing out that, due to lack of evidence to the contrary, you can't assert definitively that he was not. Ergo, it's a poor argument.

Originally Posted by rdp

Teaching & Preaching are used interchangeably in Scripture. Or, are you suggesting that when someone is "teaching" they are not "preaching" ?

I'm only interested in the biblical definition and apparent distinction between the two.

Shall I repost (for about the 50th time) the lexical definition of "teach" in I Tim. 2.12 - (only to be completely ignored of course)?

Sure. Repost it.

Originally Posted by RJR

I am not so sure the early church had a clear line of demarcation between the two. Teaching can clearly become preaching and vice versa.

Notice the interchangeableness of the terms in these parallel gospels.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ....

I do see that, but the definitions aren't interchangeable. When Mark said "preach" he used the word "kerysso", and Matthew used the word teach (matheteuo) which has a very different meaning. Was one of them misquoting?

If you take Colossians 1:28 apart and couple it with your position, you could argue that anyone can "preach" to "warn every man", but women must refrain from "teaching...wisdom."

Originally Posted by RJR

...Would you say that the ministry referred to in Eph 4:11 was not preachers?

I don't think they are necessarily preachers. The only role that seems to demand it would be that of the evangelist, and that one is subjective. I actually was surprised to find that it didn't mention preachers. I had forgotten and mentally replaced "pastors" with "preachers."

[RJR]

In regards to Eph 4:11 being preachers you responded...

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I don't think they are necessarily preachers. The only role that seems to demand it would be that of the evangelist, and that one is subjective. I actually was surprised to find that it didn't mention preachers. I had forgotten and mentally replaced "pastors" with "preachers."

All that would be necessary is to show where an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ever preached. Yes, they are preachers! Truly, I amazed at the straws that many will grasp for instead of embracing what the Bible says...

A woman is not speak in the church, which has been clearly demonstrated to be in the sense of teaching and exercising authority over the man.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by RJR

In regards to Eph 4:11 being preachers you responded...



All that would be necessary is to show where an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ever preached. Yes, they are preachers! Truly, I amazed at the straws that many will grasp for instead of embracing what the Bible says...

A woman is not speak in the church, which has been clearly demonstrated to be in the sense of teaching and exercising authority over the man.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by RJR

In regards to Eph 4:11 being preachers you responded...

All that would be necessary is to show where an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ever preached. Yes, they are preachers! Truly, I amazed at the straws that many will grasp for instead of embracing what the Bible says...

You're implying motive on my part that doesn't exist. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not arguing for the right to preach. However, I respect many women who have spoken to the entire church with the permission of their pastor, husband and/or elders, and I don't see how they are out of line with scripture since they are still subordinate. I've been in the church since I was born, and I have seen women who fell into both categories. Usually it's obvious to everyone when a woman is out of line and when she's acting in subjection to her own authorities.

Your take seems to be that teaching itself is equal to usurping authority. It seems to me that the usurping authority is what makes the teaching a negative thing. When a woman takes charge and acts of her own accord, out from under the authority of her elders and/or husband, then she "usurps authority" and has no right to teach.

My point with Eph 4:11 is only to say that a person can fulfill some offices without having to preach. For instance, a man could pastor a church or be a deacon without preaching. A man can be an elder without preaching. A man can teach and not preach. On the other hand, looking at the Strong's definitions, it appears to me that teaching is expounding on scripture, doctrine and moral teaching, while preaching is a more generic term proclaiming the Gospel/good news and would seem to be something we are all supposed to do. So maybe all Christians must preach, but only some will teach?

A woman is not speak in the church, which has been clearly demonstrated to be in the sense of teaching and exercising authority over the man.

If every man present is fine with it and a woman's authority figures are asking her to speak, then how is she usurping authority over anyone? What about in a more intimate setting, such as staff meetings? Our pastor sometimes asks the Sunday School teachers to prepare a devotional for all of the other teachers, some of whom are men. When we have our quarterly meetings, the teachers take turns sharing devotionals. How are you drawing a line between what is appropriate and what isn't, scripturally speaking?

Also, the fact that other authors used the words teach and preach interchangeably doesn't negate the fact that Paul only mentioned teaching, which has a distinct definition in the Greek. Adding preaching to the mix may be a valid conclusion, following a certain logic, but it definitely has to be inferred.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Your take seems to be that teaching itself is equal to usurping authority. It seems to me that the usurping authority is what makes the teaching a negative thing. When a woman takes charge and acts of her own accord, out from under the authority of her elders and/or husband, then she "usurps authority" and has no right to teach.

But, the dependent clause translated "nor to exercise authority over a man" is connected by a Greek negating disjunctive conjunction (οὐδέ) - meaning it serves to continue a previous negation - which is lexically defined as:


"3761 /oudé ("neither indeed," "nor indeed") introduces a statement that is negated factually and deductively (it occurs 137 times in the NT). That is, the negation rules out (invalidates) the statement that precedes it, and what naturally extends from it. This is analogous to the following: Because 100 is not enough, then neither are 90, 80, or 70 because they are all included in 100. Thus if "A" (100 in the previous example) is invalid, so is what necessarily follows (statement "B" – 90, 80, 70)" (http://biblehub.com/greek/3761.htm).

My point with Eph 4:11 is only to say that a person can fulfill some offices without having to preach. For instance, a man could pastor a church or be a deacon without preaching. A man can be an elder without preaching. A man can teach and not preach.

On what biblical-textual basis do you assert that a man can pastor a church & yet not preach? Or, that a man can teach & not preach....esp. since "teaching" is lexically defined as "to exposit from the Scriptures" (which it would be virtually impossible to not do while "preaching")?

On the other hand, looking at the Strong's definitions, it appears to me that teaching is expounding on scripture, doctrine and moral teaching, while preaching is a more generic term proclaiming the Gospel/good news and would seem to be something we are all supposed to do. So maybe all Christians must preach, but only some will teach?

But, since you've appealed to Strong's (which is actually a poor source) - here's what he has to say about the Greek verb translated as "speak" in I Cor. 14.34 - "Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says."



"Preach, say, speak. A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, i.e. Utter words -- Preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter (http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/2980.htm).



Will you also accept Dr. Strong's primary definition here?



P.S. - Sorry about the posting style again ....Tired & I'm a creature of habit. Check back in later tomorrow night to continue the fun - church tomorrow .

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by RJR

In regards to Eph 4:11 being preachers you responded...



All that would be necessary is to show where an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ever preached. Yes, they are preachers! Truly, I amazed at the straws that many will grasp for instead of embracing what the Bible says...

A woman is not speak in the church, which has been clearly demonstrated to be in the sense of teaching and exercising authority over the man.

They probably also slept but that does not make sleepers one of the Five Fold Ministry.

[RJR]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

They probably also slept but that does not make sleepers one of the Five Fold Ministry.

Wow, this is really powerful. I hope you posted this in your sleep.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by RJR

In regards to Eph 4:11 being preachers you responded...



All that would be necessary is to show where an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ever preached. Yes, they are preachers! Truly, I amazed at the straws that many will grasp for instead of embracing what the Bible says...

A woman is not speak in the church, which has been clearly demonstrated to be in the sense of teaching and exercising authority over the man.

Your colleagues are arguing that Luke, while an apostle, wasn't a preacher because scripture doesn't mention him preaching. Neither was Barnabus noted to ever have preached, yet he was an apostle as well.

But teachers preaching? Is that what you allow female Sunday School teachers to do? And now you are admitting that prophets preach?? That goes against many other posts where you scream that prophesying isn't preaching. Prophets prophesy, they don't preach, remember? You and Pliny and RJR have all posted that.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sasha

Your colleagues are arguing that Luke, while an apostle, wasn't a preacher because scripture doesn't mention him preaching. Neither was Barnabus noted to ever have preached, yet he was an apostle as well.

But teachers preaching? Is that what you allow female Sunday School teachers to do? And now you are admitting that prophets preach?? That goes against many other posts where you scream that prophesying isn't preaching. Prophets prophesy, they don't preach, remember? You and Pliny and RJR have all posted that.

Please demonstrate who said Luke was an Apostle.
Please demonstrate where Barnabas was an Apostle.

Please don't put words in my mouth. You asked who co-laborers were that did not preach. I gave you Luke, the companion of Paul. You have failed to provided evidence for his preaching and have said you don't care about Luke. Now you are misrepresenting what I said so please demonstrate where I or anyone else said Luke was an Apostle.

It has also been said that women are to be silent in the church and not usurp authority over man while acknowledging there are some exceptions to women being silent. Such as the elderly ladies are to teach the younger ladies. Also, when there is genuine pneumatic endowment.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by RJR

In regards to Eph 4:11 being preachers you responded...



All that would be necessary is to show where an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher ever preached. Yes, they are preachers! Truly, I amazed at the straws that many will grasp for instead of embracing what the Bible says...

A woman is not speak in the church, which has been clearly demonstrated to be in the sense of teaching and exercising authority over the man.

Whether or not any person who holds any one of the 5 fold ministry ever preaches is irrelevant. It does not make "Preacher" one of the 5 fold ministries.