Republicans rolling out alternatives to OCare

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Why should I have to pay for someone else's health care? Where is the liberty in forcing others to pay for the health care of someone else?

You already are. Ever notice how insurance premiums increase? Why? The most expensive reason is because so many people don't pay their medical bills from hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc. Why? They don't have insurance. So, these providers write off what they can and pass down the loss in higher costs on care. As the costs on care rises... insurance companies raise premiums to cover the rising costs. Therefore, you already are paying for others, in the MOST expensive way imaginable. However, you're paying all the additional costs like administrative costs too. Also, these people can't afford to continue various treatments, so they hold off and rush to the ER when they can't manage, raising costs more. Then they declare bankruptcy, increasing costs even more. As premiums get higher and higher, more people opt out of purchasing insurance for themselves or their families. It's a cycle that creates a race to making health insurance unaffordable. And something has to be done to fix it before it becomes too expensive to fix. At least in single payer insurance, not only does everyone receive necessary care... but it's cheaper because they don't wait until they are nearly dying to get seen. Regular physicals keep things cheaper. Also, the vast majority pay SOMETHING into the system. So the truth is... only the Single Payer model truly forces EVERYONE to pay something for their health care.

Would it not be more in line liberty and personal responsibility to allow companies to choose weather or not to offer health benefits and if so how much they want to offer while at the same time allowing individuals the option to purchase their own health plans if they so choose?

And as healthcare costs skyrocket most businesses will choose not to. Now, this plan races to the bottom... nobody insured. Does that really sound like a plan to you???

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If you want a "Free Market" and "Personal Liberty" approach... you have to treat healthcare like other industries. If people don't have the financing (insurance)... or cold hard cash... turn them away at the ER before being seen. You don't just give away a product or service with "hopes" of payment in a free market system. It drives the prices up too high for anyone to afford until even the provider closes due to the cost of running the business. Imagine a car lot run like healthcare. You just show up, ask for a car, and they give it to you and bill you. The majority of folks don't pay their car bill, or pay very slowly. Still a large number of others declare bankruptcy. What would that do to the price of cars on the car lot? Well, the price would skyrocket as the dealer passed the losses down to the consumers. There is no "free market" approach to something as universal as healthcare.... unless we turn people away at the door if they don't have money or insurance. And... then we have to ask if that is ethical with regards to healthcare, seeing that it's often a matter of life and death?

In the modern world... there is no other way than to force everyone to pay SOMETHING into the system. Single Payer would do that. Also, it would release businesses and corporations from having to pay for it unless they wanted to offer elective packages to supplement the Single Payer plan, but that wouldn't be required. It would free companies and corporations to focus on one thing... business.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You already are. Ever notice how insurance premiums increase? Why? The most expensive reason is because so many people don't pay their medical bills from hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc. Why? They don't have insurance. So, these providers write off what they can and pass down the loss in higher costs on care. As the costs on care rises... insurance companies raise premiums to cover the rising costs. Therefore, you already are paying for others, in the MOST expensive way imaginable. However, you're paying all the additional costs like administrative costs too. Also, these people can't afford to continue various treatments, so they hold off and rush to the ER when they can't manage, raising costs more. Then they declare bankruptcy, increasing costs even more. As premiums get higher and higher, more people opt out of purchasing insurance for themselves or their families. It's a cycle that creates a race to making health insurance unaffordable. And something has to be done to fix it before it becomes too expensive to fix. At least in single payer insurance, not only does everyone receive necessary care... but it's cheaper because they don't wait until they are nearly dying to get seen. Regular physicals keep things cheaper. Also, the vast majority pay SOMETHING into the system. So the truth is... only the Single Payer model truly forces EVERYONE to pay something for their health care.




And as healthcare costs skyrocket most businesses will choose not to. Now, this plan races to the bottom... nobody insured. Does that really sound like a plan to you???

======

If you want a "Free Market" and "Personal Liberty" approach... you have to treat healthcare like other industries. If people don't have the financing (insurance)... or cold hard cash... turn them away at the ER before being seen. You don't just give away a product or service with "hopes" of payment in a free market system. It drives the prices up too high for anyone to afford until even the provider closes due to the cost of running the business. Imagine a car lot run like healthcare. You just show up, ask for a car, and they give it to you and bill you. The majority of folks don't pay their car bill, or pay very slowly. Still a large number of others declare bankruptcy. What would that do to the price of cars on the car lot? Well, the price would skyrocket as the dealer passed the losses down to the consumers. There is no "free market" approach to something as universal as healthcare.... unless we turn people away at the door if they don't have money or insurance. And... then we have to ask if that is ethical with regards to healthcare, seeing that it's often a matter of life and death?

In the modern world... there is no other way than to force everyone to pay SOMETHING into the system. Single Payer would do that. Also, it would release businesses and corporations from having to pay for it unless they wanted to offer elective packages to supplement the Single Payer plan, but that wouldn't be required. It would free companies and corporations to focus on one thing... business.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."

– Norman Thomas, American socialist

Just sayin', Aquila.....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."

– Norman Thomas, American socialist

Just sayin', Aquila.....

Again, any system that treats anyone who walks through the ER doors is a social system. Everyone already pays for those who are uninsured and seek treatments in ERs, clinics, and doctor's offices... with added administrative costs, liability insurance costs, etc. The only way to get EVERYONE paying SOMETHING is to go Single Payer. We pay taxes to ensure that we have police, fire, roads, EMS, etc. These services are there to serve everyone, even if we don't call upon them but once a year. Unless they go "Free Market" and turn those away who can't pay, the only way to fund a system that serves everyone is to get as many as possible paying something into it so that providers of care get paid and don't pass the costs down to everyone else. You can't have it any other way. The costs will rise and rise until no one can afford it unless we have nearly everyone paying into the system.

What's the difference between paying for the uninsured via ever rising and inflated costs on the private market (the loss being passed down to us) and a socialized system (like expanded Medicare/Medicaid) that stabilizes costs and cuts out the inflated costs of excessive administration? That caps the amount awarded in lawsuits to stabilize liability insurance costs? That finally allows those who provide care to finally be paid? A system that stops the bleeding? Why should doctors do insurance paperwork for hours and hours when they could be providing care??? Doctors are getting sick of it. They got into medicine to serve the sick and research disease to help humanity. Why relegate them to this???

We shirk away and whine about "socialism". The doctors will not be government employees. They will remain private. It's simply like being on Medicare/Medicaid. It's subsidized insurance to pay private practitioners so they can stop passing the loss down to us in higher costs for care and thereby raising insurance premiums.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, any system that treats anyone who walks through the ER doors is a social system. Everyone already pays for those who are uninsured and seek treatments in ERs, clinics, and doctor's offices... with added administrative costs, liability insurance costs, etc. The only way to get EVERYONE paying SOMETHING is to go Single Payer. We pay taxes to ensure that we have police, fire, roads, EMS, etc. These services are there to serve everyone, even if we don't call upon them but once a year. Unless they go "Free Market" and turn those away who can't pay, the only way to fund a system that serves everyone is to get as many as possible paying something into it so that providers of care get paid and don't pass the costs down to everyone else. You can't have it any other way. The costs will rise and rise until no one can afford it unless we have nearly everyone paying into the system.

What's the difference between paying for the uninsured via ever rising and inflated costs on the private market (the loss being passed down to us) and a socialized system (like expanded Medicare/Medicaid) that stabilizes costs and cuts out the inflated costs of excessive administration? That caps the amount awarded in lawsuits to stabilize liability insurance costs? That finally allows those who provide care to finally be paid? A system that stops the bleeding? Why should doctors do insurance paperwork for hours and hours when they could be providing care??? Doctors are getting sick of it. They got into medicine to serve the sick and research disease to help humanity. Why relegate them to this???

We shirk away and whine about "socialism". The doctors will not be government employees. They will remain private. It's simply like being on Medicare/Medicaid. It's subsidized insurance to pay private practitioners so they can stop passing the loss down to us in higher costs for care and thereby raising insurance premiums.

Altruism always sounds great, but you have to address the issue that doctors salaries will go down. You'd have to include some education reform and medical malpractice reform to address physicians issues with a single payer system. Policy experts are not qualified as much as physicians are to discuss this issue. A deduction of salary probably is not going to cover the overhead expenses. That in turn can affect quality of care. I am waiting to hear everything that rolls out as a free market option.

You can site Canada all day long, but we do have RonB who posted in the past about how long it took for his ankle issue (metal pins) to be addressed. It was a paperwork and waiting game nightmare from what I remember.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Altruism always sounds great, but you have to address the issue that doctors salaries will go down. You'd have to include some education reform and medical malpractice reform to address physicians issues with a single payer system. Policy experts are not qualified as much as physicians are to discuss this issue. A deduction of salary probably is not going to cover the overhead expenses. That in turn can affect quality of care.

Salaries will not go down as much as most think. They will become more competitive. And doctors will not have to pay as much in malpractice liability insurance seeing that lawsuits will be capped. So even if salaries go down a certain percentage, it will be made up for in other savings.

I am waiting to hear everything that rolls out as a free market option.

There is no such thing as a "free market" option. Unless we treat medicine like a free market commodity, there can't be. Again, imagine a car dealership working like healthcare. A person doesn't have financing or cash in hand. So the dealership gives them a car and bills them. They don't pay the bill. Guess what, the dealer will pass that loss down to the consumer. The effect... the price of the cars sold in that dealership will skyrocket until few can afford them. Car dealerships are "free market". That means unless one has financing or cash, they DON'T drive off with a new car! Medicine can only be handled like a free market service IF they choose NOT to treat those without insurance or cash to cover the service rendered. That's what most don't get. As long as it's an open system that treats anyone who wanders into the ER... it's a social system rather private... or government. And all loss is ultimately passed down to the consumer in higher healthcare costs... thereby raising premiums. So... you'll NEVER hear a free market option! LOL

The closest thing to a free market option is the ACA. It FORCES the uninsured to buy insurance from private insurance providers. It's essentially GOVERNMENT marching people into the hands of health insurance conglomerates at gun point. Again, the goal is to get as many as possible paying SOMETHING into the system. This would be far better achieved through Single Payer.

You can site Canada all day long, but we do have RonB who posted in the past about how long it took for his ankle issue (metal pins) to be addressed. It was a paperwork and waiting game nightmare from what I remember.

No system is perfect. What amazes me is that a person might wait a while to get a non-life threatening surgery in Canada because of a paperwork problem... but they eventually get the care they need. Every year an estimated 45,000 Americans DIE because they can't afford the car they need... but nobody cares??? I'm sure many of those families would have rather had a system where there were some clerical mishaps... but ultimately their loved one's received the care they needed. Keep in mind... many people know one of those uninsured people who couldn't afford the treatments they needed. If they would have had insurance... they could have had the checkups and treatments they needed. But they couldn't afford it. Healthcare was rationed, right here in the U.S., to those who could afford it. And they died as a result.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Salaries will not go down as much as most think. They will become more competitive. And doctors will not have to pay as much in malpractice liability insurance seeing that lawsuits will be capped. So even if salaries go down a certain percentage, it will be made up for in other savings.



There is no such thing as a "free market" option. Unless we treat medicine like a free market commodity, there can't be. Again, imagine a car dealership working like healthcare. A person doesn't have financing or cash in hand. So the dealership gives them a car and bills them. They don't pay the bill. Guess what, the dealer will pass that loss down to the consumer. The effect... the price of the cars sold in that dealership will skyrocket until few can afford them. Car dealerships are "free market". That means unless one has financing or cash, they DON'T drive off with a new car! Medicine can only be handled like a free market service IF they choose NOT to treat those without insurance or cash to cover the service rendered. That's what most don't get. As long as it's an open system that treats anyone who wanders into the ER... it's a social system rather private... or government. And all loss is ultimately passed down to the consumer in higher healthcare costs... thereby raising premiums. So... you'll NEVER hear a free market option! LOL

The closest thing to a free market option is the ACA. It FORCES the uninsured to buy insurance from private insurance providers. It's essentially GOVERNMENT marching people into the hands of health insurance conglomerates at gun point. Again, the goal is to get as many as possible paying SOMETHING into the system. This would be far better achieved through Single Payer.



No system is perfect. What amazes me is that a person might wait a while to get a non-life threatening surgery in Canada because of a paperwork problem... but they eventually get the care they need. Every year an estimated 45,000 Americans DIE because they can't afford the car they need... but nobody cares??? I'm sure many of those families would have rather had a system where there were some clerical mishaps... but ultimately their loved one's received the care they needed. Keep in mind... many people know one of those uninsured people who couldn't afford the treatments they needed. If they would have had insurance... they could have had the checkups and treatments they needed. But they couldn't afford it. Healthcare was rationed, right here in the U.S., to those who could afford it. And they died as a result.

I have more to say about your post, but don't have time today.

However, I will post this interview with Betsy McCaughey who is brilliant on the Constitution and has read every single line of the Obamacare bill. She already knew they wanted to push everyone toward Medicaid so as to implement a Single Payer system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IiglbyA_4

The Truth Behind Obamacare Enrollment Numbers video interview with Neil Cavuto.
http://betsymccaughey.com/the-truth-...lment-numbers/

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I have more to say about your post, but don't have time today.

However, I will post this interview with Betsy McCaughey who is brilliant on the Constitution and has read every single line of the Obamacare bill. She already knew they wanted to push everyone toward Medicaid so as to implement a Single Payer system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IiglbyA_4

The Truth Behind Obamacare Enrollment Numbers video interview with Neil Cavuto.
http://betsymccaughey.com/the-truth-...lment-numbers/

Exactly, when people experience how expensive insurance truly is... and then they see the savings Single Payer will provide... they will be far more likely to embrace it. Also, consider the corporate bureaucracy, people will want something far more simple.