Oneness Questions

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

SO LUKE, YOU HONESTLY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS HAD A LITERAL FATHER? YOU KNOW HE CAME FROM THE WOMB OF MARY ,RIGHT?, YOU BEGAN IN YOUR MOTHERS WOMB, RIGHT? LOOK WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

Jesus was born of a virgin how could He have a literal Father like me or you?

Originally Posted by Sean

THATS MY POINT, AS LONG AS YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD "DWELLS IN JESUS BODILY"Col.2:9 (IT IS "ALL" INSIDE THE BODY OF JESUS"...THATS WHAT I KEEP SAYING.

You should reread what I said:

2. As to the Godhead and how Jesus relates to it. He is both in it and it is in Him. He alone took on a bodily form therefore it is true that in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily but at the same He also is as Paul says equal with God (the Father) no one goes around speaking of how they are equal with them self to do so would be pointless.

Please note that I am not saying that Jesus is alone!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Luke

Jesus was born of a virgin how could He have a literal Father like me or you?






I WILL TELL YOU, BUT ITS GRAPHIC...GOD "CREATED" A SPERM CELL IN THE WOMB OF MARY TO FERTILIZE AN EGG CELL. THAT IS WHERE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON HAD HIS BEGINNINGS. THAT IS WHY HE CALLED HIS GOD(MY FATHER)....THAT IS WHAT BEGOTTEN MEANS. IT IS A HUMAN TERM OF 2 HUMAN BEINGS CREATING ANOTHER ONE. THAT IS WHY JESUS IS CALLED THE (ONLY) "BEGOTTEN" SON OF GOD. (just read the beginnings of the gospels...so and so begat so and so). They were makin' human babies. Jesus was a human baby. JESUS HAD A DAD.






You should reread what I said:

2. As to the Godhead and how Jesus relates to it. He is both in it and it is in Him. He alone took on a bodily form therefore it is true that in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily but at the same He also is as Paul says equal with God (the Father) no one goes around speaking of how they are equal with them self to do so would be pointless.

Please note that I am not saying that Jesus is alone!

I see that clearly...

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

I WILL TELL YOU, BUT ITS GRAPHIC...GOD "CREATED" A SPERM CELL IN THE WOMB OF MARY TO FERTILIZE AN EGG CELL. THAT IS WHERE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON HAD HIS BEGINNINGS. THAT IS WHY HE CALLED HIS GOD(MY FATHER)....THAT IS WHAT BEGOTTEN MEANS. IT IS A HUMAN TERM OF 2 HUMAN BEINGS CREATING ANOTHER ONE. THAT IS WHY JESUS IS CALLED THE (ONLY) "BEGOTTEN" SON OF GOD. (just read the beginnings of the gospels...so and so begat so and so). They were makin' human babies. Jesus was a human baby. JESUS HAD A DAD.

Have you ever noticed that in the two Genealogies that have Jesus in them (Matt 1 and Luke 3) it never uses the word begat about Jesus.

In Jesus birth there was but one human and that was the virgin Mary.

Jesus had no beginning of days:

Micah 5:2
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Hebrews 7:3
without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Luke

Have you ever noticed that in the two Genealogies that have Jesus in them (Matt 1 and Luke 3) it never uses the word begat about Jesus.

In Jesus birth there was but one human and that was the virgin Mary.

Jesus had no beginning of days:

Micah 5:2
But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Hebrews 7:3
without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

I agree with these passages, interestingly enough,(Colossians 1:15)says Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation...that means He was "born of Mary" before Cain and Abel,

He was also the "First" to be raised from the dead, even (before) Lazarus, Jairus daughter. O.T. figures like the womans son that Elijah raised. etc.(Colossians 1:18)

He was the lamb "slain" from the "foundation' of the world. That means He was crucified before the world began. (REVELATION 13:8)

We dealt with that in the other thread, but you will not be satisfied to hear it once.

Ok, here we go again....

The prophecies in the O.T. are not bound by time...Notice carefully..Is.9:6
"For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given(present tense, around 1000 years PRIOR to the virgin birth)

Same with Ps. 22:1-18...it starts with "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" it goes into the details of the crucifixion in the PRESENT TENSE... (1000 years approx. BEFORE the crucifixion. )


Romans 4:17 says..."God spoke of things that are not, as though they were."

MEANING GOD SPOKE OF THINGS THAT WERE NON EXISTENT AS THOUGH IT ALREADY HAPPENED!

JESUS HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE MIND AND WILL OF GOD. HE(GOD) JUST READ THE WHOLE BOOK BEFORE IT HAPPENED...I am reconciling all of these passages that were written hundreds of years before they happened and nearly all of them are in the PRESENT TENSE. The standard prophecy uses future tense for things to come, BUT NOT MESSIANIC PROPHECIES...

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

I agree with these passages, interestingly enough,(Colossians 1:15)says Jesus is the "firstborn" of all creation...that means He was "born of Mary" before Cain and Abel,

He was also the "First" to be raised from the dead, even (before) Lazarus, Jairus daughter. O.T. figures like the womans son that Elijah raised. etc.(Colossians 1:18)

He was the lamb "slain" from the "foundation' of the world. That means He was crucified before the world began. (REVELATION 13:8)

We dealt with that in the other thread, but you will not be satisfied to hear it once.

Ok, here we go again....

The prophecies in the O.T. are not bound by time...Notice carefully..Is.9:6
"For unto us a child IS born, unto us a son IS given(present tense, around 1000 years PRIOR to the virgin birth)

Same with Ps. 22:1-18...it starts with "my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" it goes into the details of the crucifixion in the PRESENT TENSE... (1000 years approx. BEFORE the crucifixion. )


Romans 4:17 says..."God spoke of things that are not, as though they were."

MEANING GOD SPOKE OF THINGS THAT WERE NON EXISTENT AS THOUGH IT ALREADY HAPPENED!

JESUS HAS ALWAYS EXISTED IN THE MIND AND WILL OF GOD. HE(GOD) JUST READ THE WHOLE BOOK BEFORE IT HAPPENED...I am reconciling all of these passages that were written hundreds of years before they happened and nearly all of them are in the PRESENT TENSE. The standard prophecy uses future tense for things to come, BUT NOT MESSIANIC PROPHECIES...

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Luke

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

LOOK WHAT YOU QUOTED LUKE, YOUR (GOD) WAS BORN in verse 15
YOUR (GOD) WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD in verse 18.
WAS REV. 13:8 about his birth order also???(JESUS WAS "SLAIN" BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN)

I told you Jesus preexisted only in the "mind" of God.(read my previous threads again) But the scripture is YOUR PROBLEM to deal with here.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Sean

LOOK WHAT YOU QUOTED LUKE, YOUR (GOD) WAS BORN in verse 15
YOUR (GOD) WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD in verse 18.


I told you Jesus preexisted in the "mind" of God.(read my previous thread again) But the scripture is YOUR PROBLEM to deal with here.

You should really read what i posted then you would have seen that as i pointed out the passage is not speaking of a literal birth but rather of rank.

Is Jesus not your God also?

Jesus was not born before the woman that gave birth to him was born to say so simply shows a grasping at straws. The passage you refered to in colosians when taken context clearly is speaking of rank not actual birth order.

Col. 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.




If Jesus created all things and was before all things how did he have a beginning point?

Even if you want to say that really it God the Father speaking the world into existance and those words were Jesus that still does not work because according to that line of reasoning there was a time when Jesus did not exist and the though of those words preceeded those words therefore Jesus was not before all things. Also those words would have been made by someone other than Jesus and that would have been something that Jesus did not make again contradicting the very passage you ascribe to. God may speak of things that havent yet happened as if they alread have but He does not speak of what did not happen as if it did that is called lying.

Please address the last paragraph of my post as you neglected to do so earlier.

[adampastor]

Originally Posted by Luke

Have you ever noticed that in the two Genealogies that have Jesus in them (Matt 1 and Luke 3) it never uses the word begat about Jesus.

Not so! The Greek word used for begat gennaō is used in Matthew 1:16 and 1:20.

Matt 1:16

And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born [begat - same Greek word] Jesus, who is called Christ.

So verse 16 is saying "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was begotten Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mat 1:20

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife:
for that which is conceived [begotten - same Greek word] in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In other words, that which is begotten in her is of the holy Ghost.

Let's not forget the announcement of Gabriel in Luke 1:35 ...
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born [begotten - same Greek word] of thee shall be called the Son of God.

So Gabriel announced to Mary that that which is begotten of her shall be called the Son of God. Why? Because the One God, the Father, has caused this - that a child would be miraculously begotten in her and for that reason (Greek dio kai) he shall be called "the Son of God."


Matthew and Luke clearly state that Jesus indeed was begotten (past tense of begat) in the womb of Mary by the power of God's Spirit.

So Matthew does indeed use the same Greek word in the genealogy when speaking of Jesus. Sadly, it was the translators who chose to use the words 'born & conceived' instead of 'begotten'

Likewise, Luke used the same Greek word for 'begat'; however the translators used the word 'born'

It's therefore, a translation issue.

Likewise Micah 5:2 - which is simply stating that the birth of the Messiah in Bethlehem, had been spoken of ages ago i.e. whose goings forth have been from of old, from old time.

The translators (because of their obvious trinitarian bias to present a pre-existing 'God the Son') chose to translate the Hebrew as from everlasting when it comes to Jesus; yet the same Hebrew is rightly translated of old (time) in Gen. 6:4; 1 Sam. 27:8; Isa 51:9; Jer 28:8; Ezek 26:20; Amos 9:11; Micah 7:14, Mal. 3:4.

And Hebrews 7:3 (as already pointed out) is simply stating that there is no genealogical record, no time of birth/death given when it comes to the priest Melchizedek. So, using Hebraic metaphor, there is no record of Melchizedek actually dying. Therefore his priesthood is ongoing.
In this sense Jesus the Son of God; likewise abideth a priest continually.

That is the point, that the writer of Hebrews is making.

Hope this clarifies ...